Body Language vs Detect Lies

[AlexanderHowl]

I would rather replace both advantages with the Empath Talent. It is generally more useful, is a completely mundane Talent, and it removes the temptation of munchkinism.

[Hide]

Originally Posted by Jarreth

Why would anyone get the Detect Lies skill when the Body Language skill is BOTH the Empathy advantage and the Detect Lies skill? Not to mention it's cheaper as well as its only Per/A where Detect Lies is Per/H.

I understand that Body Language is only on a subject you can see. Though cant help feel it's a bit OP.

Hello Jarreth,

I also had that debate in my head a few days ago.

Body language is similar to empathy and detect lies. But body language does not give you these benefits from the different kinds of empathy (quoting Vicky’s old post):

They allow you to bypass Indomitable.
They allow you to bypass mutual non-Influencability barriers unrelated to Indomitable (e.g. between non-sapient dogs and sapient humans).
They give you an overall 'feel' of what the entity before you is like, emotionally speaking. Suffering? In anger? Friendly?

About body language... it is not necessarily designed to tell if someone is lying or not. It lets you read a person’s intentions considering their “body cues”.

Imagine you are interrogating a guy. You have body language. You ask a question and you declare “I want to use body language to tell if the subject is lying”. As a GM I would say, fine, I will let you know if the subject is dishonest towards your question. And that is all. Maybe he puts a happy face, but the guy is just angry. On success I tell you whether he is being dishonest or not; but it does not have to be exclusively about his answer... he might be telling the truth but I tell you he is being dishonest when you ask. I will let you decide the final thing. If you want the complete picture, get detect lies.

Also, body language’s scope may be limited to cultural familiarity, i.e. in India people shakes their heads side to side in a motion we would define as “no-no”, but they mean something else. (Following the interrogation example) if you don’t know about this, how can you be certain of your “results”? Moreover, if the subject is shaken by emotions (I.e. crying), you will have more trouble telling because their body language is “cloaked by the tears”.

Finally, and IMO, body langauge is a broad skill with lots of possible (negative) modifiers because it involves variables which are not limited to the body but also the context and conditions of the subject (especially to detect lies). While detect is specifically designed to “find lies” (and it gives you defaults for other skills).

So, they have different purposes. Think of this situation, you get caught and wake up in a room, alone and unrestrained... Then someone comes to you and says “don’t worry you are ok”. What would be more useful? Using body language to “predict if you shall be attacked right away” (which lets you conclude he is lying) or “using detect lies to tell whether he is lying or not”? (which does not tell you if you shall be attacked right away, but now you may prepare yourself)
And what happens if the guy does not speak and you lack combat reflexes?

-Hide

[Brandon_Corey]

On a somewhat tangential topic: what skills allow you to guess the emotional state of someone you're speaking with right now? Something like figuring out "He's trying to mask anger with a carefree smile" is often done by various detectives, but I don't see anything but Empathy doing it in Kromm's clarification a couple pages back.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Brandon_Corey

On a somewhat tangential topic: what skills allow you to guess the emotional state of someone you're speaking with right now? Something like figuring out "He's trying to mask anger with a carefree smile" is often done by various detectives, but I don't see anything but Empathy doing it in Kromm's clarification a couple pages back.

I have always assumed that this was the purpose of Psychology (Applied), with better margins of success giving more complete insight into why he might be doing that.

[AlexanderHowl]

Psychology (Applied) is psychological counseling. You would need a good hour with a cooperative patient to begin to determine their psychological issues and probably weekly meetings to be able to guide their progress. I would personally allow a character under weekly psychological counseling by a professional to benefit from 10 hours a week of 'study' towards gaining points for buying off behavioral disadvantages.

[TGLS]

No, that's Psychology (Clinical) which appears in GURPS Horror. Psychology (Applied) is the "what will this person probably do" skill.

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by TGLS

Psychology (Applied) is the "what will this person probably do" skill.

And its one of the best skills in the game, at least at our table.