[PURE THEORY] Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by Turhan's Bey Company

Be careful comparing what Harn (a specific world and campaign background) has to what GURPS (a generic rules system) has or should have. Harn does not provide values which are "typical" for a more-or-less Medieval society. So far as I can tell, the economics are based fairly specifically on late Medieval England, the background material for which is plentiful and relatively accessible but comes from a relatively small area and slice of time.

Interesting, as from what I've seen of Harn the technology in other areas (armour, weapons), and the military system (mostly a pretty standard 'pure English feudal' system) appear to be from what I suppose would be 'early high middle ages' - say Henry II or Richard I's time (~1150-1200 if I recall the dates right). I don't recall plate armour, for example.

[Turhan's Bey Company]

Originally Posted by Rupert

Interesting, as from what I've seen of Harn the technology in other areas (armour, weapons), and the military system (mostly a pretty standard 'pure English feudal' system) appear to be from what I suppose would be 'early high middle ages' - say Henry II or Richard I's time (~1150-1200 if I recall the dates right). I don't recall plate armour, for example.

Well, by "late," I mean "second half," so that'd fit close enough for gaming. It just so happens that the 1200s are also when manorial documentation starts to get really good, so that's about the earliest you can get your hands on the economic underpinnings of the military and political system.

[Turhan's Bey Company]

Originally Posted by Rupert

No. The 4' tall guy has SM -1, the 7'6" guy SM +1. The short guy, even if he's broad like a dwarf, can reasonably expect his armour and clothes to weigh only about half as much as the tall guy's stuff.

And, probably, cost half as much. Or a quarter. Or whatever the appropriate square-cube result would be. But possibly protect less well, since the smaller suit of armor might be thinner. Or possibly not. Hey, maybe somebody could come up with some scaling rules!

[JAW]

There is some scaling rules for GURPS out there - going by the name gulliver - just google it. If you want "realistic" pixies and giants and don't mind lot of details - it's your thing..

About the topic: Personally I wouldnt mind some paragraphs on magic powered robots or airships builded with TL4 technology as long as they were the usual GURPS quality and clearly labeled as fantasy stuff. Well maybe they would be stuff for another book - but if they can fit those things on the sidebars or something - heck why not. And it would not make it D&D - we don't really get serious speculation how magic powered robots (ok, golems) or low tech airships would affect the society in general on D&D products do we - but I'd be expecting that from a GURPS book.

[simon_mas]

Originally Posted by hal

If D&D is what any GURPS fan wanted, we'd be playing D&D [...] Why try to compete with D&D's obvious advantages when those advantages are D&D's very own existence?

well, one thing is saying, like they're saying: "let's conquer a piece of market by making the rules less overcomplex and putting abit of fantasy stuff in the low tech", another is saying "let's turn gurps into d&d".

Originally Posted by hal

too much work for players and certainly too much work for someone who can look at any Friendly Local Game Store and join in with the D&D crowd. All it takes is a pair of dice, some help making a character, and a riotous good time at the table as a rookie watching the veterans play the game.

plus some time to correct this rule here because it doesn't fit your campaign. oh, and this other. and that player wants to use that class from book X, so i suppose another player can use another class you never saw before. and the magic system... well, dude, good for vancian, but wouldn't it be better to use that from supplement Y? and the feats, and the skills, and...

unless you are buying only with the 3 core books (something that i have actually never seen, ever since additional books came out), be prepared to spend a long time considering options, wondering if rule X is broken or not, if it actually makes sense with your campaign world, and so on.
D&D give the *impression* of immediate usability. in fact, it is a thing of the past. even AD&D, in its final days, was rules-heavy almost as much as GURPS. now it's all about "options" that are really about "min-maxing", form my point of view.

sure, lots of people still manage to play great games with D&D. but, personally, i'd say it's the "old guard" and that they do so despite the rules, rather than thanks to them.

maybe this new edition loses some of the absolute realism, and maybe, as you say, "some assembly" is required... but the engine is still AGES away from D&D, for many many many reasons. and, frankly, the idea of simplyfying it a bit is not enough to think that GURPS is becoming D&D.

[Luther]

Hat off to Hal. Good posts (and entertaining too!). I'm impressed.

[CrownedSun]

Originally Posted by hal

Now to get to the heart of the matter. If D&D is what any GURPS fan wanted, we'd be playing D&D.

I'm not quoting a lot of this, just this one bit up here, as it covers the crux of what it is that I want to reply to.

I think your incorrect as to a few facts here. First, I think you're incorrect in the implication that GURPS is trying to "become more like D&D"; Second, I think you're incorrect in the implication that GURPS should continue to cater to it's old business model instead of trying to rock the boat and find something else.

The First point seems to be quite common these days, in the subculture. Every time a new edition of something comes out, there are a number of people saying that someone is adopting some D&D-like trend. In some cases, this even has a bit of a root in fact. Is it true for GURPS?

I'd suggest that if the goal of SJG was to play second-fiddle to D&D, or even try to "fight it using its own Strengths", they're doing a very very poor job. I've run both 4th edition games and D&D 3.5 games, and I can definately tell you how different they are in so many ways. Each has strengths and each has weaknesses. Both are fun, in their own way, though personally GURPS falls a bit closer to my own preferences.

I'd suggest that the Strengths that GURPS is calling upon relate to it's ability to be customized easily, its ability to model all kinds of different assumptions and genres and settings. Similarly, it benefits from being much more unified in approach and mechanics. I was surprised, in fact, by how much of 4th edition so far is keeping true to "playing off the Core Books". Powers has been the only book that has even strayed all that far...

Now, Second, I'd suggest that given what we can assume about the RPG Market and what Kromm and other members of SJG have shared on these very forums, the "market" that many people point as "GURPS Key Strengths" is very very limited in a lot of ways. The math-wiz simulationist who wants to run historical games with accurately weighted armor is a tiny tiny sector of the overall RPG market. Honestly, for all that it was a larger part of the market in the past I don't think it was all that much of one. I've got a huge 3rd edition collection that rivals (individually) any other gameline (if not my collections from entire companies). I didn't buy these books because I wanted precisely realistic rules, but because I wanted fun game books that worked and let me do the things that GURPS does so well.

The kinds of things, indeed, that 4th edition seems to be focused on. Admittedly, at the moment, it seems to be focused on them more from a "we'll eventually get this stuff out into your hands!" kind of way. I'm really looking forward to Martial Arts, Ultra-Tech, even the new Vehicles, and I'll be a very happy camper when they come out. That's because, with GURPS, I can run styles of campaigns that I can't really do with anything else. Since 4th edition has come out, the number of different options and styles of games I can run has grown tremendously.

The end result? My overall ability to support the entire gaming market has shrunk to a fair degree. I used to be able to buy all kinds of stuff, and I did, but now I'm being a lot more picky. GURPS 4th edition stuff has remained on my menu of stuff I will buy however.

In summary, I suspect that SJG is making a lot of decisions they are to widen their fan base and attract the gaming dollars of gamers that normally would decide that they'd rather grab a D&D supplement or a White Wolf book or even books from companies that are sadly no longer in business.

They're doing this by remaining true to what makes GURPS GURPS, and trying to broaden the appeal and make sure that they avoid some of the things that could scare people away from the game.

[CrownedSun]

Oh, and for the record, I kind of agree that "Low Tech" isn't the greatest name in terms of appeal. I bought it for 3rd edition because I wanted the content, not because I thought the name was great. I'd probably go for "Archaic Tech"; "Ancient Tech" has appeal, but that speaks to me more specifically of Bronze and Iron era gear as opposed to the overall spectrum of technology.

I'd agree that Fantasy Tech isn't the greatest name, but I like it slightly better than Low Tech regardless. A universally better name would be appreciated, preferably something that fits the *-Tech/High-Tech/Ultra-Tech lineup. Which, I'd note, Low doesn't... Ultra, after all, is the odd one out by that schema.

I'd also suggest that the problem might not entirely relate to Low Tech being a good seller and thus replacing it with a bigger color version is automatically going to be a good deal. It's a lot easier to decide "Yeah, I could easily grab this Low Tech book, it could be fun" when its a softbound 128 page book that runs for much cheaper than $35.

GURPS 4th edition books have to take the larget format and higher price tag into effect, which will sadly mean that some books that were economical under 3rd edition pricing and format will...not be nearly as easily published. Thankfully, we have e23 and larger books allowing for additional information that might not otherwise be published separately.

Lastly, I love the idea of including TL4 in a "Early Tech" type book. That'd both expand the market for the book and add in some material that could increase the pagecount. Similarly, some "fantasy/alternate" tech would be a very good move from a "getting people to buy the book" kind of deal.

Honestly, a book of armor and swords and misc. low tech stuff is one thing. A book with all that, AND blackpowder weapons AND some fantasy stuff? That's looking a lot more worth the price tag!

[sir_pudding]

If "Fantasy-Tech" is TL1-4 with both realistic and fantastic gear and Ultra-Tech is TL9-12 with realistic and superscience gear, shouldn't High-Tech include "modern" fantastic and superscience gear, such as steampunk-tech, Orgone energy, Dean machines ect.?

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

... shouldn't High-Tech include "modern" fantastic and superscience gear, such as steampunk-tech, Orgone energy, Dean machines ect.?

That's all in Warehouse 23 :\ :)