[PURE THEORY] Low-Tech vs Fantasy-Tech

[dataweaver]

Plus the fact the Kromm has mentioned that everything that Klaus is asking for wouldn't be enough to fill the book: Low Tech already goes into more detail about medicine, law, and customs than Klaus is asking for; and without bringing TL4 into the picture, we're talking about another twenty pages or so before the topics covered by Low Tech are thoroughly mined out. If you avoid elixers and enchanted items a la GURPS Magic (more properly the realm of 4e's version of a Magic Items book), exactly how much territory is there to cover in the "fantasy-tech" stuff?

(Answer: quite a lot; especially if you get the author of GURPS Steampunk to write it. TL(x+n),x<=4 versions of airships, ornithopters, and robots to start out, plus "alternate sciences" based on ancient "what if the Greek model of the universe was accurate?", etc.)

[Luther]

Originally Posted by joncarryer

I would be happy with, and I suspect that even Klaus might find some use in, a rather moderate level of precision that is applicable across a broad range of times and places (including fantasy settings) that share a common set of technological achievements. Something along the lines of "1 acre of land could feed X people, with A and B agricultural technologies available, and with the introduction of C technology near the end of what is covered by TL2, this number could increase to Y people. 1 acre of land under these conditions might cost anywhere from 1000 $Gurps to 2500 $Gurps, depending on land quality, local politics, etc.

Include something along these lines for each of the 4 TL's, for a total of 4 short paragraphs, and I for one, would be very happy.

I couldn't have said better. Thanks.

[ArchonShiva]

A Low Tech book, with realistic Low-Tech technology, is needed.

It will be hard to make it 240 pages on its own.

The suggestions about including basic economics are great.

Fantasy-Tech sounds a bit worrysome indeed, but the idea isn't faulty on its own. Here's my take on it: Ultra-Tech will have a Superscience section, with force swords and hyperspace. Low-Tech could have one too, sort of like Steampunk (not Steam-tech) was to TL 5: You know, TL3 airships and ancient greek automatons, the sorts of technologies that could have been managed by low TL geniuses and a certain amount of rubber science (or whatever the low-tech equivalent of rubber is).

The whole point is, the "fantasy" techs have to be clearly separate from the "real" tech (as will be the case in Ultra-Tech, as I understand it), and this is a techbook, not an equipment list, so the point is to explain how this stuff works.

I believe we really don't need d20's double-bladed sword in there. And yet, maybe it might as well be there. For completion.

Oh yeah -- we NEED rules for giant-sized broadswords somewhere, might as well be here (I'm thinking about the old Gurps Mecha bits).

[Turhan's Bey Company]

Originally Posted by ArchonShiva

Fantasy-Tech sounds a bit worrysome indeed, but the idea isn't faulty on its own.

Since I'm sure the editorial Powers That Be have a firm grasp on what is likely to be useful and popular content, my only concern with "Fantasy Tech" is that this clumsy and possibly misleading title might replace the far superior title "Low Tech," which is both easily grasped and parallel with "High Tech." Fantasy is not necessarily the same thing as low-tech, so whatever book has realistic low-tech equipment should have "Low Tech" as a title. "Fantasy Tech" should have fantasy technology ranging from TL 2 ornithopters, TL 7/8 Technomancer gear, TL 9 anti-solar sails (solar sails are pushed by light; anti-solar sails are pushed by darkness), and TL 12 demon-powered FTL drives.

Originally Posted by ArchonShiva

(or whatever the low-tech equivalent of rubber is).

Some sort of hardened sap or gum, I'd imagine. Maybe a gelatin or agar boiled out of seaweed. "Gum science" doesn't roll off the tongue particularly well, though.

[ManOfTroy]

My own twin low denominational coin into the ring and say this: the idea of a GURPS: Magetech book sounds -very- interesting, thought I bet that the book would either have to be broken up by 'Eras' then by the different items in each era, or there would have to be a 'Magetech' series...one for Stone Age, one for Bronze Age and so on until we get to Ultra Magetech.

[Professor Phobos]

This is the book I would buy.

Low-Tech's coverage of TL0-4 gaming-useful gear. Weapons, medicine, transportation, that sort of thing. Some guidelines as to how each one is developed and what kind of society can/does build them. (For worldbuilding purposes) I this is the entirety of the book, I'd probably find it boring and not buy it.

For the rest of the book? Give me TL0+1, or TL4+2, or whatever: Crazy alternate tech ideas. If a good fourth or third of the book is inventive ideas to sprinkle into a game, I'd be very happy.

Likewise, with High-Tech, a little bit of Steam-Tech for TL5+2 or weird 50s sci-fi stuff for TL6+1 and so on would make the book a much better buy for me.

I don't care about historical realism as much as I care about "neat stuff!", so I'd rather a book that gave only the most useful historical stuff and then talked about airships, Archimedes' heat ray and Chinese bamboo flamethrowers.

The way I see it, if you're going to make a 240 page book on a Tech Level, then the TL+Xs are just as worthwhile to include as anything else. The argument that ideas for that stuff is too "campaign specific" do not make sense to me. Historical realism is campaign specific, and a stark minority of campaigns at that.

A Magic-Tech book would also do pretty well, I suspect. Exalted has already proven that magitech can be popular.

[dataweaver]

IMHO, "divergent technology" - TL(X+Y) - is to TL0-8 as superscience is to TL9+; so including divergent technology chapters in both Low-Tech (my preference for the title) and High-Tech would be very appropriate.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by Turhan's Bey Company

Some sort of hardened sap or gum, I'd imagine.

Oddly enough, that's what rubber is. :)

[Adina]

Originally Posted by ArchonShiva

and this is a techbook, not an equipment list, so the point is to explain how this stuff works.

Actually the -Tech books are equipment lists. Kromm was quite specific about this.

Originally Posted by Kromm

The entire Tech series always was and always will be catalogs of gear. That's what those books are for.

So probably no economic models or world building guidelines.

I would expect 'Low'-Tech to include:

-a resolution to the armor weight issue
-weapon customization rules
-lots of non-adventuring gear
-discussions of when various items become available
and what impact they had on society
-and probably other ideas I haven't thought of

Lastly they haven't even chosen an author yet so this is all (slightly informed) speculation at this point.

JeffM

[KlausPrinceOfTheUndeads]

Originally Posted by joncarryer

For example, I would agree entirely with the claim that all pretty much any gamer needs in a book like this is "stuff to play games". Where the problem lies is exactly what people consider that "stuff" to consist of. For Klaus, it would appear to consist of a discussion of weapons and armour, with some reference to medicine, law and customs. I would agree on the discussion of weapons, armour and medicine, but for me law and customs are derived social factors that depend not only on the technology available to the culture, but also on more ephemeral qualities that are independent of technological level and aren't really relevant topics of discussion in a book that focuses on technology. These are elements of a culture that I can decide on myself, once I have determined the physical substrate on which the society rests.

I agree, but hints are always useful: I played too many fantasy games in wich medieval trials looked like modern american ones (and I was playing in Italy with italian gamers, of course). Also, real-world exotic customs may be useful inspirations for a GM.

Likewise, for me, "historical stuff" like how many people an acre of land can support given the available technology is part of that physical substrate that it would be invaluable to have available in a book like this, saving me the time and trouble of having to look up all the facts myself and then abstract it to a level that is useful for gaming.

I agree, but being able to tell your players "This city is surrounded by 1,000 acres of tilled land" is much less useful than being able to present them stats for the equipment their characters need.

While there may be gamers who want this book to include information like land prices and people fed per acre at a level of precision that is accurate down to the last 1/4 penny and grain of wheat, I personally don't believe that this level of precision is possible or desirable outside of a book that is focused upon a particular definite place and time. I would be happy with, and I suspect that even Klaus might find some use in, a rather moderate level of precision that is applicable across a broad range of times and places (including fantasy settings) that share a common set of technological achievements. Something along the lines of "1 acre of land could feed X people, with A and B agricultural technologies available, and with the introduction of C technology near the end of what is covered by TL2, this number could increase to Y people. 1 acre of land under these conditions might cost anywhere from 1000 $Gurps to 2500 $Gurps, depending on land quality, local politics, etc.

But if you want to write a book that someone is expected to buy, you have to explain exactly how A, B and C work; otherwise, it is not more useful than just saying "a sword is made of metal".

Include something along these lines for each of the 4 TL's, for a total of 4 short paragraphs, and I for one, would be very happy.

I strongly suspect that it would require more space than that...