What the Hell?

[Orlin]

When I was explaining the concept behind In Nomine to my friends (and pitching it to them as a potential game), one of the concepts that they struggled to grasp was that of the portrayal of Hell. I dismissed it, but I've since revisited the topic.

The way I explained IN, the war between the angels and the rebels never really ended. Sure, a decisive victory was struck over Lucifer and his host when Michael kicked their collective butts out of Heaven, but that was just a battle. One battle. The war continues to be waged. When I explained this, one of my players responded with, "So, what? Hell is like a prison with a two-foot fence?"

I guess the response that I was looking for was that it wasn't a "prison" at all.

This idea doesn't sit well with me, but it's really the best answer I can give, based on the books and (admittedly few) supplements I've gotten my hands on. The rebels have no desire to lose the war or kick off the apocalypse before they get all their eggs in a row, so they don't flood the earth with too many demons, which makes Hell sort of like a "Home base" for the bad guys. This is awkward for me, because in most other games, Hell is a prison at best. It's not something that demons enjoy; it's a dark hole, absent of the love of God. I've seen it interpreted as a land of endless nightmarish torment and a source of eternal suffering. I've even seen it portrayed as the celestial equivalent to an emotional and sensory deprivation tank in the midst of a bottomless pit -- I've never seen it depicted as an enjoyable place, even to demonkind.

From what I gather, the established cannon for In Nomine sort of depicts Hell as an awful place for demons, and a REALLY awful place for humans. Most demons would much rather be mucking things up on earth, but of all the places they could be, Hell isn't the absolute worst -- at least, not so long as SOMEBODY down there loves them.

How do you portray Hell in your games? Is it a prison, a playground, or a little bit of both? How was it created, and what was the intention behind its initial design? Does it call to the demons who are destined for it, attempting to drag them back into its depths through some form of celestial gravity, or is it little more than a dark reminder of failure's price for those who had to claw their way up into an earth-side tour?

[JCD]

Okay. I'll take a stab.

After the Battle, the demons WERE booted into Hell, which was a hermetically sealed prison...for the most part. Lucifer was able to Project himself to the Earth, but not able to actually DO much.

He needed a hole to escape. And for that he needed a tool. And he needed a tool who hated Heaven. Oh look. A chick in the desert being hounded by angels. Hmm.

Enter Lilith, who established the very first Tether to Hell. (What do you think she did with all those babies?) NOW the demons had an exit in the Fertile Cresent...and the demons came out swinging. This was the historical period when the Sumerian civilization was essentially destroyed.

Now, God, with his foresight, knew the demons would get out eventually, which is why he left Angels on the Earth after kicking the demons down.

Once the demons helped spread their awful (the scorpion men of legend etc) more tethers formed. People were generally awful themselves at times, but Lilith was the one who popped Hell's cherry...for a price.

The thing about a prison is those high walls and heavy gates also make a really nice fortress. So it's a bit of both now.

[Jason]

I didn't know the stuff about Lilith, but that would definitely help explain why demons would deal with a human "Princess" at all when they have such disdain for humans more generally.

As for whether Hell is a prison or playground: This actually depends somewhat on which part of Hell you mean, too, which is described somewhat in the Heaven and Hell supplement. The Principality of Shal-Mari is definitely playground, full of Kobal's comedy clubs, Haagenti's restaurants, and Andrealphus' bordellos. It's where demons go for a reward when they earn some vacation time but aren't trusted to go all the way to Earth. Saminga's Principality of Abbadon is pretty bad all over, though, basically just a barren field of things that strip souls, and a crack in the ground full of maggots — not fun unless you are one of the things cruising around and killing.

In short, some parts of Hell are a playground. Some are a prison (typically more for damned souls than for demons). Most of Hell, though, is a workplace with really unpleasant working conditions ... and most demons are backstabbing and scrambling to get promoted to a position where they can get transferred off-site, up to Earth.

[ladyarcana55]

The way I explained it to my players was this:

Hell is a prison, but not for whom you think. The demons are the prison guards and there is no one regulating it. But, unless you are playing a Hell campaign it doesn't matter, they wouldn't be going there anyway. I let my players keep their perceptions of Hell because it's too much to explain something that doesn't pertain to them in game anyway. Unfortunately, a couple of them are expecting DMC (Devil May Cry) and are very irate that they aren't going to mount an assault on the gates of Hell. (I don't drink but this is a point that is making me wish I did...)

It was tough for me to pitch my first IN game to my group. I ended up doing a one shot game as a demo, complete with pregens so we would not waste time creating characters for a game we may not play. It worked out fine, it gave them the flavor of the game that I couldn't explain. We are actually playing a full game now. There are still things they are getting the hang of (and other things I have to beat into them) but at least they are giving it a chance and they seem to be having fun in the process.

If you do go this route, here is something I would really push: if it does become a long-term game, don't let them keep the pregens. That was a mistake I made and I notice the players who kept their pregens have a tougher time getting emotionally involved with their characters, whereas the one who created their characters from scratch have more of a vested interest. But no one wants to redo their characters because I made the pregens a little too good. D'oh!

Another lesson I learned in this: do a prospectus. A quick blurb on what IN is about, what their characters are, what they can expect and what you will expect from them did a lot to help settle a lot of issues.

That's my two cents from someone who is still fighting that battle and learning the rules.

[Orlin]

Ha! I love it!

What an interesting way to attune Lilith to her word! And, oddly enough, in the truest sense. If you go further, you could say that in doing such a thing, all of Hell would "owe her." Or at least, all of the Prince's at the time. That sort of debt would be more than enough to establish an immediate power-base -- she's got at least one Geas on every Prince -- and not that difficult to imagine her collecting more.

It also explains why every newborn Lilim comes out looking for that first "Sweet Deal" on which to build her empire.

[tHEhERETIC]

I love the Lilith angle!

I look at Hell this way: be it ever so crappy, it's home. Hellborns know it sucks, hideously, but they might hesitate on an Earthside mission because a) it's a completely foreign place where angels with BFG's are known to hang out and b) making mistakes on a mission is just one more excuse for the Boss to torment the demon. Stay home and you just get the daily beatings, nothing more 'creative'.

Growing up Catholic I had a lot of time to think about Hell after all. It doesn't need to be a walled prison--though the fortress/prison observation is quite handy. Simply put a bunch of selfish jerks in one room, tell them it's theirs, and then leave. Let them find their pecking order and enforce it in whatever manner they see fit. Let them create catch-22's and laugh at the losers in the games. Leave the Selfish to their own devices and they will create Hell.

Next, let the strongest float to the outer walls, let them delight in keeping their fellow demons down. Sure some will hate angels and humans enough to screw with them, but mostly they enjoy screwing with each other. The DP's are like vampire elders--the only ones who really care about the War beyond slogans and banners, and only then because it's highly personal to them. Everyone else are fools and cannon fodder.

With this mentality, even outnumbered (which they will be eventually IMHO) angels will still win by their very nature. Even at their most petty and misunderstood, they're working for each other. Sure they call it G-d, but in the end unselfishness is about the guy next to you.

So I have my biases.

So consider the demon trying to Redeem. First he has to realize that Looking Out For Number One has created Hell. Next he has to try empathy and unselfishness in an environment where it has absolutely no payoff. Then (or before that, if he's smart) he needs enough self-esteem to get topside and out of Hell's grasp. Then he has to convince some very big angels that not only does he get it, but that his self-esteem is not a liability. Which it isn't, but it could so easily be confused with Pride...

(And you've no idea how hard it was to write that without swear words!)

[Dalillama]

Originally Posted by tHEhERETIC

The DP's are like vampire elders--the only ones who really care about the War beyond slogans and banners, and only then because it's highly personal to them. Everyone else are fools and cannon fodder.

And for them, especially the old ones, the First Fallen, who raised the flag of rebellion in Heaven, Hell and everything in it are constant reminders that they're second best, that they gave it their all and lost, and have never been able to redeem that loss.

[Kelly Pedersen]

I can't quite recall if this has been confirmed in canon, but the impression I've gotten is that Hell is divided into two layers, sort of like Heaven: you've got the area of Hell that the demons live in (which could be referred to as "upper Hell", by analogy to the Lower Heavens), and the Deeper Hells, which are considerably more horrible.

After the Fall, the demons were intially confined to the Deeper Hells, which are essentially the part of the universe furthest from God. Human souls who met their fates, meanwhile, went to Upper Hell, which at that time was a fairly uneventful place - unpleasant due to distance from God, and being full of the worst specimens of humanity the world had produced, but not an active torture chamber.

When Lilith made her deal with Lucifer, she opened the gates of the Lower Hells, and allowed the demons into both Earth and Upper Hell, turning it into the happy vaction destination we all know and love, since the demons were taking out a few millennia of frustration and rage on the human souls there. Lucifer, meanwhile, maintained his domain in the Lower Hells, which even demons don't like to travel to.

[Archangel Beth]

I would tend to think that... Hell is Australia. I mean this metaphorically, though considering how much of Australia's wildlife is poisonous, the metaphor may be going a bit far...

But basically, Hell is a prison colony.

That, as people have noted (and the e23 expansion of Lilith goes into, if I recall correctly? or is it the IPG?), has been turned into a fortress as well. But it's still Australia. Er, Hell. It's still this place where all the demons were locked in for a Rather Long Time, and they developed this little backbiting culture based on trying to find a purpose and being selfish, and it's nasty... and it's all many, even most demons know, so it's kind of home.

And it's defiance and shame to the ones who know better.

(Australia, not being populated by demons -- just humans and poisonous wildlife that occasionally looks like Djinn without wings -- has naturally made rather better of itself than Hell has.)