Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-24-2011, 09:02 PM   #11
Polydamas
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Central Europe
Default Re: Dueling Long Shield [LT]

Quote:
Originally Posted by GnomesofZurich View Post
Of the existing weapons which we have statistics for, I'm envisaging the Dueling Long Shield as most similar to Qian Kun Ri Yue Dao for usage (correct me if I'm wrong) - the shield bash would be similar to the hilt punch, and the spikes would be used to make thrusting attacks.

If anyone (particularly the Powers That Be) can correct or confirm the above, or provide stats for this weapon, it would be appreciated.
The trouble is that there are only about 20 people alive with the familiarity for these shields, so I don't think the authors had a lot of information to work with to assign damage. The historical techniques are pretty complicated, because the shield could be rested on the ground or used two-handed like a staff. A video of sparring by people I respect is here.

I don't remember the shields being discussed in the playtest- Low Tech is a big book!
__________________
"It is easier to banish a habit of thought than a piece of knowledge." H. Beam Piper

This forum got less aggravating when I started using the ignore feature
Polydamas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2011, 10:14 PM   #12
Dangerious P. Cats
 
Dangerious P. Cats's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Default Re: Dueling Long Shield [LT]

A martial art style for the shields would be interesting.
__________________
There is no "i" in team, but there is in Dangerious!
Dangerious P. Cats is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2011, 08:45 AM   #13
GnomesofZurich
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Canada
Default Re: Dueling Long Shield [LT]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polydamas View Post
The trouble is that there are only about 20 people alive with the familiarity for these shields, so I don't think the authors had a lot of information to work with to assign damage. The historical techniques are pretty complicated, because the shield could be rested on the ground or used two-handed like a staff. A video of sparring by people I respect is here.

I don't remember the shields being discussed in the playtest- Low Tech is a big book!
Fair enough, but as is there isn't enough information in the book to actually make use of it in game as anything other than a difficult to wield shield. At this point I would rather have possibly (historically) inaccurate stats than no stats at all.

Unless someone can offer better advice, I figure I'll use it as follows - Shield Bash at thr cr, or use it as a Dueling Polearm for thr cr+2/swing cr+2. Using the calculations from LTC2, I get a ST score of 13 to use this as a weapon, but given that it's well balanced and controlled near the striking surfaces, I'd probably lower that to 12. What I'm not clear on is whether one could parry with it when wielding it using Staff skill.

It would be cool to have a Martial Arts style for the use of this weapon/shield; if no one better qualified to do so steps up, I'll try to throw something together. Edit: Having watched this playlist of five videos which show the dueling shield in use, some main tactics appear. When using it in one hand, it is generally rested on the ground, and used to Beat. When wielded in two hands, the cutouts can be used to Hook, and otherwise you can do a Shield Bash, or thrust with the spikes. One interesting thing that comes up in the first two videos is when one fighter wields the dueling shield in two hands while still holding his sword. The fourth video shows what looks like a variant on the dueling shield, as it is smaller (DB 2), and has more of the Staff exposed - I'm not going to worry about this one at this point. The last video starts discussing the dueling shield at 1:44, and gives a good discussion and demonstration of how it might have been used.

So, a very preliminary write-up:

Dueling Long Shield
Skills: Shield (Buckler); Staff; one of Axe/Mace or Broadsword.
Techniques: Disarming (Staff) Feint (Buckler); Hook (Staff); Retain Weapon (Staff); Sweep (Staff).
Cinematic Skills: Blind Fighting; Power Blow; Pressure Points; Push.
Cinematic Techniques: Dual-Weapon Attack (Staff); Dual-Weapon Defense (Staff).
Perks: Akimbo; Exotic Weapon Training; Form Mastery; Grip Mastery; Off-Hand Weapon Training.

Optional Traits
Advantages: Ambidexterity; Enhanced Block (Buckler).
Skills: Axe/Mace; Brawling; Broadsword;
Techniques: Kicking (Brawling).

Comments?
__________________
Secret: Not a Gnome. (Actually a Dwarf with Dwarfism).

Last edited by GnomesofZurich; 04-26-2011 at 07:13 PM.
GnomesofZurich is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2011, 04:42 AM   #14
GnomesofZurich
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Canada
Default Re: Dueling Long Shield [LT]

Apologies for the double post, but I would like to get some feedback on the Style I drafted above, particularly from those who have some knowledge of this weapon.
__________________
Secret: Not a Gnome. (Actually a Dwarf with Dwarfism).
GnomesofZurich is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2011, 10:52 AM   #15
sir_pudding
Wielder of Smart Pants
 
sir_pudding's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ventura CA
Default Re: Dueling Long Shield [LT]

Quote:
Originally Posted by GnomesofZurich View Post
Apologies for the double post, but I would like to get some feedback on the Style I drafted above, particularly from those who have some knowledge of this weapon.
Have you looked at Talhoffer? His is the only Fechtbuch that I'm aware of that teaches this unusual weapon. I've read somewhere that the point of dueling shields was that because they were so weird, the courts reasoned that nobody would bother training in them, and therefore justice wouldn't be subverted by professional duelists as they believed was happening with conventional weapons used in judicial duels at the time. Unfortunately I'm unable to recall the source, sorry (EDIT: actually it may have been in the commentary to the Talhoffer Fechtbuch I read).
sir_pudding is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2011, 05:45 PM   #16
GnomesofZurich
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Canada
Default Re: Dueling Long Shield [LT]

Quote:
Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
Have you looked at Talhoffer? His is the only Fechtbuch that I'm aware of that teaches this unusual weapon. I've read somewhere that the point of dueling shields was that because they were so weird, the courts reasoned that nobody would bother training in them, and therefore justice wouldn't be subverted by professional duelists as they believed was happening with conventional weapons used in judicial duels at the time. Unfortunately I'm unable to recall the source, sorry (EDIT: actually it may have been in the commentary to the Talhoffer Fechtbuch I read).
I haven't looked at his work (at this point I've basically watched the videos I linked to from Youtube), but I'll take a look. The rough style I presented is based on very little evidence, just something I threw together. I agree that it appears the dueling shield was designed as a weapon no one would bother training with.

It did occur to me an interesting character would be one that had wronged enough people (and survived the judicial trials) that he became proficient with this unusual weapon, and that he might then go on to teach others of his ilk how to make use of it.
__________________
Secret: Not a Gnome. (Actually a Dwarf with Dwarfism).
GnomesofZurich is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2011, 06:15 PM   #17
Polydamas
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Central Europe
Default Re: Dueling Long Shield [LT]

I would include "Broadsword or Axe/Mace" in the style because these were always used with a Longsword or a Knobbed Club. I think it two of the Germanies had different customs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GnomesofZurich View Post
It did occur to me an interesting character would be one that had wronged enough people (and survived the judicial trials) that he became proficient with this unusual weapon, and that he might then go on to teach others of his ilk how to make use of it.
Sounds like a good backstory, although it looks like people were teaching how to use these shields very shortly after they became customary. Talhoffer, Paulus Hector Mair, and some of the anonymous South German treatises cover them.
__________________
"It is easier to banish a habit of thought than a piece of knowledge." H. Beam Piper

This forum got less aggravating when I started using the ignore feature
Polydamas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2011, 07:01 PM   #18
GnomesofZurich
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Canada
Default Re: Dueling Long Shield [LT]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polydamas View Post
I would include "Broadsword or Axe/Mace" in the style because these were always used with a Longsword or a Knobbed Club. I think it two of the Germanies had different customs.


Sounds like a good backstory, although it looks like people were teaching how to use these shields very shortly after they became customary. Talhoffer, Paulus Hector Mair, and some of the anonymous South German treatises cover them.
Okay, thanks for the input. You're right that it looks like the two-handed usage of this weapon was secondary, as compared to wielding it as along with sword or club; I'll make the modification.
__________________
Secret: Not a Gnome. (Actually a Dwarf with Dwarfism).
GnomesofZurich is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2011, 08:56 PM   #19
sir_pudding
Wielder of Smart Pants
 
sir_pudding's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ventura CA
Default Re: Dueling Long Shield [LT]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polydamas View Post
Sounds like a good backstory, although it looks like people were teaching how to use these shields very shortly after they became customary. Talhoffer, Paulus Hector Mair, and some of the anonymous South German treatises cover them.
Yeah, that's my point; if it was intended as something nobody would bother to train then the German judiciary seriously underestimated the willingness of the professional martial culture to train in anything.
sir_pudding is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2011, 04:36 AM   #20
GnomesofZurich
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Canada
Default Re: Dueling Long Shield [LT]

Quote:
Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
Yeah, that's my point; if it was intended as something nobody would bother to train then the German judiciary seriously underestimated the willingness of the professional martial culture to train in anything.
Humans ingenuity should never be underestimated! Any more suggestions for the style I drafted above (or for stats for the weapon)?
__________________
Secret: Not a Gnome. (Actually a Dwarf with Dwarfism).
GnomesofZurich is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
shield, shields

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:08 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.