TL3 shields work as cover vs modern rifles?

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Nymdok

As it turns out there is a guy in Texas who gets paid to shoot suff.

While there may well be a guy in Texas who gets paid to shoot stuff, it's not the guy who runs that website. Far as I know he's just an enthusiastic amateur.

[Xplo]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Only they're not made of shiny heavy duty steel.

Sure.. but a lot of people don't know that, apparently. They're going by something they saw in a piece of art, or in a movie, or something they thought they read about or heard somewhere.

Same mentality gets you 10 lb broadswords. After all, if you've ever hefted one of those fantasy display swords with all the glass gems and spiky bits and dragon heads on it, you know they're really heavy. Most people don't get to swing real swords around.

[Dalillama]

Originally Posted by bstubby

On page 408 it says that for thin objects like doors or walls only the DR counts (no HPs). Shields certainly seem to fall within that realm.

I think that will cover it. Using the OP's numbers, that leaves an average 5.52 mm round doing 3.5 points of penetrating damage after shield and corselet. The DR 9 for a plywood shield still sounds pretty high to me, but other than that it seems like a good rule. An iron shield the size of a scutum is insane, though. That thing would be way too heavy to use or hold for a reasonable length of time.

[Nymdok]

Originally Posted by Anthony

While there may well be a guy in Texas who gets paid to shoot stuff, it's not the guy who runs that website. Far as I know he's just an enthusiastic amateur.

My bad. I thought he was actually compensated for that work. As it turns out he runs his website on donations. That being said, i think the site has merit when penetration is discussed, if only qualitatively.

Nymdok

[Luke Bunyip]

Originally Posted by Nymdok

this link may provide useful qualitative penetration values

http://www.theboxotruth.com/

As it turns out there is a guy in Texas who gets paid to shoot suff. Texas is awesome :)

Nymdok

I just watched Green Neck do it for free. He's just gotta upload the photo's somewhere and write a quick report. But in the interum, a short answer: if I was a legionaire, I would not want to get shot with 5.56mm ammo. However, .22 long rifle was a very different story.

[Crakkerjakk]

Originally Posted by Luke Bunyip

I just watched Green Neck do it for free. He's just gotta upload the photo's somewhere and write a quick report. But in the interum, a short answer: if I was a legionaire, I would not want to get shot with 5.56mm ammo. However, .22 long rifle was a very different story.

Kinda what I guessed. I know for Military Police training they always told us the only safe places to hide behind a car was behind the engine block and wheel wells. That suggests to me that a shield will not stop most modern firearms. Adding to this the experimenting we did on the range with ammo crates, cinder blocks and sand bags, I'd bet that only very light rounds wouldn't penetrate what I assume is less than an inch of wood and maybe a little metal.

[Green-Neck]

Ok, we undertook the test this arvo [thanks bunyip]. to see the photos go to
.223 vs. legionary

We used 12mm [1/2"]pinus radiata ply to represent the 6-12mm of birch ply the Romans would have used for their shields. This was backed, after a 20mm [3/4"] gap, with 1.2mm of mild steel, representing the lorica segmentata. The target was backed with 125mm [5"] of phone books to represent the torso of one of Rome’s finest.

The .223 was fired at 25m range with hollow point rounds. 5d pi+ [0.5]. The rifle was a Remington 700 .223 with a 22" barrel [one could argue for 5d+1 for the increased barrel length over the listed 16.5" assault rifle, as described in BS Characters].

We found that, without the shield or segmentata, 125mm[5“] penetration was just achieved. With the shield and armour in place, penetration was reduced to 100mm [ 4”]. This is a 20% reduction in tissue damage*. Lucky for us, the .223 is 5d damage - so the reality check indicates 4d of damage should penetrate both shield and armour, more with a fully jacketed round.

A 22LR subsonic round [1d-1 pi-] pierced the shield but was stopped by the armour
A 22LR supersonic hollow point round [1d+1 pi] pierced both shield and armour, but only penetrated 5mm into the book [1 dam?].

The realistic armour value for the shield and armour is DR 3.5 in this case. Actually it should be 1.75 given the hollow points used.

I hope this has been of some use!

*OK, book damage.

[Luke Bunyip]

Originally Posted by Green-Neck

The target was backed with 125mm [5"] of phone books to represent the torso of one of Rome’s finest.

It has been suggested by a colleague that we should have used a pig torso, as per those fine practitioners of scientific methodology, the Myth Busters. Unfortunately, the nearest we could have come to this was to staple both of Greenneck's wife's chickens together. Instead we used all the telephone books in the house...

[weby]

So seems that not only do people agree.. but also the tests.. :)

I think that just using the structural/cover DR tables on page B558559 will be WAY better presentation of the shield than the shield table.. giving perhaps DR 1 with the leather covering..

Actually using those would make sense also for normal attacks, but have things like swing attacks cause HP damage to the shield.

Wallboard (1/2” thick) is listed as DR 1 HP 18 for a 10 squarefoot and the shield is about 7 or so.. so the shield wood (half that thick) should have about 14*7/10 or 10 HP and DR 1, not 60HP and DR 9.

Though.. it did likely have the metal parts on top and botton and middle adding to robustness and weight... so perhaps using a slightly higher DR against swing attacks that are blocked and the full HP for an object that weight.. Giving it thus perhaps DR 3 vs swing attacks and the HP 23 and that 1/4 needed to penetra would be for the swing type..

The second real problem comes from the high pemetration value of arrows.. but that is another issue.. as arrows have same or better penetration value in game than the .22 and with blodkin points would allways penetrate..

Someone average ST(10) with a composite bow and Bodkin Points would have about same penetration((1*3.5-2+3)*2=9) as a m16 rifle firing hollow points(5*3.5/2=8.75)..

So perhaps the Bodkin Point should be counted as FMJ equivalent.. and have normal penetration.. and the broad heads have (0.5)..

Perhaps the shield could be DR 3/1 and 23 HP. Thus a piercing type attack would be met by 1 DR(perhaps +1 HP), Impaling perhaps 1 DR+2 HP, requiring a "strong" bow to penetrate. and cutting and others would require: 3 DR +6 HP=9 points to penetrate, but any damage over the 3 would quickly damage the shield..

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by benz72

There is a difference between penetrating a shield to do damage to whatever is hiding behind it and damaging the shield to destroy it.

I never checked, but I've always assumed that in 4E, shields couldn't take HP damage from bullet-type attacks, at least not small bullets like 5.56.