Perk Limit

[aesir23]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

I'm not sure, but as GURPS Fan points out above that's what PU2 seems to be saying. If you can get all these bonus perks slots, what's the point of the limit at all?

I don't think the PU2 limit makes sense unless you're using it instead of the Style limits. If you're using PU2 without styles, than I can see wanting some limit on the number of Special Exercise and Unusual Training Perks each person can get.

Since I use Martial Arts heavily in my campaigns, I've never bothered with the perk limit in PU2. If I were to run a campaign that featured a lot of the cooler non-combat perks in PU2, I'd consider making Non-combat styles to accommodate them.

[Kromm]

Each of the limits has a specific purpose.

• Magic Perks don't aid characterization much, if at all. However, they make your magic more powerful. This effect is reasonably balanced if you view Magic Perks collectively as a kind of enhancement on spells, also collectively. Ergo, points in spells govern the number of Magic Perks you can have, in the name of game balance.
  
  
• Style Perks (combat perks) don't aid characterization much, either. They make you a more capable fighter, though. This power boost, too, is fairly balanced if you view Style Perks collectively as a kind of enhancement on all combat training. Ergo, points in combat skills and techniques govern the number of Style Perks you can have, also in the name of game balance.
  
  
• Most other perks exist to aid characterization. They also provide a small bump in power, but nothing to fear – potentially abusable perks have built-in checks and balances. However, to avoid mixed-up, hard-to-roleplay characters with dozens of easily overlooked minor gifts, there's a suggested limit, just as there is for quirks. And since most perks aren't tied to any one subset of abilities, this is tied to general power level.

I'm frankly surprised that this causes any confusion. It seems quite evident to me that "makes magic more powerful," "makes combat abilities more powerful," and "gives me little quirky details" aren't the same goal, and that it makes sense to impose separate limits on the three effects. But for those who find that it is unclear, you may have all of the following:

• Up to one Magic Perk per 20 points in spells.
• Up to one further Magic Perk for a specific magical style per 10 points in that style's spells.
• Up to one Style Perk per 20 points in combat skills and techniques.
• Up to one further Style Perk for a specific fighting style per 10 points in that style's combat skills and techniques.
• Up to one perk that's neither a Magic Perk nor a Style Perk per 25 points you have to build your character.

[weby]

Originally Posted by Kromm

I'm frankly surprised that this causes any confusion. It seems quite evident to me that "makes magic more powerful," "makes combat abilities more powerful," and "gives me little quirky details" aren't the same goal, and that it makes sense to impose separate limits on the three effects. But for those who find that it is unclear, you may have all of the following

I think it is partly because the separation of the three types has not been spelled out in any book where I have seen it, only the specific cases.

Thus ot would have helped for example if every time there was a perk it would not be be named XXXXX perk, instead being for example XXXXX magic perk or similar, as just using the same word perk for all three types makes it unclearer.

[Gurps Fan]

Originally Posted by Kromm

I'm frankly surprised that this causes any confusion. It seems quite evident to me that "makes magic more powerful," "makes combat abilities more powerful," and "gives me little quirky details" aren't the same goal, and that it makes sense to impose separate limits on the three effects.

Doctor, I'm surprised, too, at hearing that you've been intending such a distinct separation between "characterization" perks and "improved capability" perks. I thought all perks, including combat and magic perks, are characterization aid! (Kyokushin karatekas and capoeiristas both have the same Karate skill but they are different, so style perks should help them characterize themselves.) Thus, I thought a character who has a style could get extra perks that belong to that style, while one who has no style was limited to the "Point Total / 25" maximum and this limit also restricts combat/magic/whatever perks. However, now that I've heard your words, I follow them.

[arnej]

Originally Posted by Kromm

But for those who find that it is unclear, you may have all of the following:

• Up to one Magic Perk per 20 points in spells.
• Up to one further Magic Perk for a specific magical style per 10 points in that style's spells.
• Up to one Style Perk per 20 points in combat skills and techniques.
• Up to one further Style Perk for a specific fighting style per 10 points in that style's combat skills and techniques.
• Up to one perk that's neither a Magic Perk nor a Style Perk per 25 points you have to build your character.

Just so I'm extra-double-secretly clear: Where does the Style Familiarity Perk fall into this list?

• Buy it with 1 of my 6 'neither a Magic Perk nor a Style Perk' perks?
• Buy 20 spells and then use that perk to buy Style Familiarity perk?
• Buy 10 spells within a style and then buy that style's Style Familiarity perk?

arnej

[Dinadon]

Originally Posted by arnej

Just so I'm extra-double-secretly clear: Where does the Style Familiarity Perk fall into this list?

• Buy it with 1 of my 6 'neither a Magic Perk nor a Style Perk' perks?
• Buy 20 spells and then use that perk to buy Style Familiarity perk?
• Buy 10 spells within a style and then buy that style's Style Familiarity perk?

arnej

Definitely not the last, you need a Style Familiarity perk to take style perks in the first place. The second also makes no sense, as you buy a Style Familiarity perk when you buy the style, and not all styles come to 20 points. Its also possible for someone to have multiple styles but not hit 40 points.

Yet the first also doesn't make sense, as it means you've limited the number of styles a person can take to their point total. Even more of an issue if they can take martial and magical styles. What does make sense is that to get a Style Familiarity you need to buy a style, and styles have their own set of justifications. So ultimately its not that you've brought a Style Familiarity perk, but that you've brought a style and gotten a perk to show for it.

[Crakkerjakk]

Yeah, my understanding was that the Style Familiarity perks are exempt from normal perk limits. Some styles even let you circumvent how many points you need to buy your first perk from the style, as well. Double Trouble from Gun Fu lets you get Off-Hand Weapon Training before spending 10 points in it, frex.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Kromm

It seems quite evident to me that "makes magic more powerful," "makes combat abilities more powerful," and "gives me little quirky details" aren't the same goal, and that it makes sense to impose separate limits on the three effects.

What about perks like Concealed Weapons Permit, Early Adopter, or Supplier which, IMO, seem to fit the third goal more than the second? Tactical Shooting (and IIRC Gun-Fu for the second two) lists them as Style Perks, but they seem to be more in the vein of general perks.

EDIT: It just seems (Murphy's level) weird to me that a self-taught shooter in permitting state can't get a Concealed Carry Permit, and an Employee Discount at his gun store unless he has 40 points in combat skills.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Sunrunners_Fire

Because the GM says you can't. Such rules are optional. If the referee chooses to use them in its' game, attempting to bypass the spirit of those rules is unlikely to go over well.

Apparently I'm talking Martian. I'm still trying to comprehend what the actual rules even are supposed to be to begin with. Every time I think I have a handle on it an author tells me I'm wrong.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

There are rules, however, for a limit in PU2. Why not just not have a Style and take them as General Perks, which apparently (at least according to Doug Cole and Shawn Fisher) you always can. It seems to totally disincentive Styles. I am confused. Of course this is all terribly off-topic. Apologies.

I know there are. But I have enough trouble explaining the in-style and out-of-style perk limits to newbies (and the self-admitted 'blonde' guy).
So I just say that non-combat perks have no limits. And combat perks can only be gained by MA limits.

My game. *shrug*

(I'm currently designing a 200-point character, and I doubt I can come up with more than 4 perks I'd actually buy. I'm currently settled on 3.)