Before Word of Darkness, all was pointless dungeon crawl

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Not the same thing. A character's concept is something more core than the level of a character.

Not really. It's "what were you before you became a vampire".

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by whswhs

Call of Cthulhu does work with a formalized "character concept" system, but it does have a list of skills that is largely made up of things like Biology, Library Use, Mechanical Repair, and Psychoanalysis. And it's inherent in the formula that you start out not knowing about the Mythos and then get caught up in it.

I suppose that's a fair example.

Originally Posted by Anthony

Not really. It's "what were you before you became a vampire".

You're missing the point of concepts there. They're actually there to stay. They're meant to influence your themes and roleplaying throughout the campaign.
E.g. the Orphan Guide (or what's the precise name?) to a large extent focused on how a hobo deals with challenges of surviving on the street (despite incidentally being a mage).

This is very contrasting to e.g. D&D professions, where having the Bowyer/Fletcher line from Player's Option written on your sheet just means that you can craft one additional item type.

These are two very different approaches. I'm not sure how much Call of Cthulhu focuses on the latter approach to character concepts. But WoD definitely was much more willing to integrate who you are into campaigns (as opposed to leaving it behind and/or focusing on what you [can] do).

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

I suppose that's a fair example.


You're missing the point of concepts there.

My experience with people playing WoD games in the early 90s is that the stuff you describe was backstory, except as it tied to powers or lineage (e.g. a bum was far more likely to become Nosferatu than Toreador). Mage was something of an oddity because of the logic of personal paradigms.

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

These are two very different approaches. I'm not sure how much Call of Cthulhu focuses on the latter approach to character concepts. But WoD definitely was much more willing to integrate who you are into campaigns (as opposed to leaving it behind and/or focusing on what you [can] do).

That's just an issue of social vs tactical games. WoD had somewhat unusual focus, but you could play a scrofulous beggar way back in Stormbringer (1981).

[GM Joe]

Even though the video is an obvious bit of hype, the idea that all games were the D&D stereotype prior to the release of Vampire: The Masquerade is so completely untrue it shouldn't be allowed to serve their purpose. I wonder how many of the people involved with the video believe its false message?

There were not only games that were in no way about dungeon crawling more than a decade before VtM, there were games that focused on more than combat long before that. SPI released Dallas in 1980, which was about the same themes as the TV show. Or consider Bushido, released in 1979, which emphasized the characters' social aspects. Much the same could be said of En Garde! (1974). How about Bunnies & Burrows (1976)? Not to mention Toon (1984), which has much more in common with modern games like Primetime Adventures and Cartoon Action Hour than it does with D&D...or VtM, for that matter.

The types of RPGs available has been incredibly varied virtually from the beginning. It's tragic that so few people involved with the hobby have a good grasp its history, and it doesn't help when people who are in a position to spread the word (like the folks behind this video) don't do so.

[RyanW]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Mage was something of an oddity because of the logic of personal paradigms.

To this outsider, Mage seems like it is a distant third place among the WW games. At least in terms of cultural penetration, possibly because the two big ones leaked in through the preexisting vampire and werewolf stock.

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by RyanW

To this outsider, Mage seems like it is a distant third place among the WW games. At least in terms of cultural penetration, possibly because the two big ones leaked in through the preexisting vampire and werewolf stock.

It required more thought put into character design and campaign to make full use of. The other main two could work just as monster of the week beat-em-ups.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

It required more thought put into character design and campaign to make full use of. The other main two could work just as monster of the week beat-em-ups.

Mage could do that too. My experience was that Werewolf was the third place game, but it depends on the group and the area (the other games were basically never played; I've never even encountered a Wraith or Changeling campaign).

[Flyndaran]

Oh sure it could be played that way, just like nearly any RPG really. But it's not as amenable to that style. It also used more philosophical concepts and fuzzy suggestions. Most gamers I've met want more rigid powers and rules, hence D&D's consistent popularity.

I loved 1st edition Mage for all that weirdness, but my group vastly preferred Vampire. They would say they wanted all the angst and story complexity, but games always became cool powers and near mindless violence. Not complaining, but what people say, what they do, and seem to prefer don't always all agree.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

Oh sure it could be played that way, just like nearly any RPG really. But it's not as amenable to that style. It also used more philosophical concepts and fuzzy suggestions. Most gamers I've met want more rigid powers and rules, hence D&D's consistent popularity.

The gamist appeal of Mage was that it was super-exploitable, making it popular with the same types of people who built planet destroyers for 250 points in Champions.

[robertsconley]

Originally Posted by baakyocalder

Basically, White Wolf is trying to argue that it wasn't dungeoncrawl and it was something new in gaming.

No it wasn't new as a style of roleplaying but it did become popular and skyrocketed to #2.