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Old 11-17-2018, 03:10 PM   #11
Tom H.
 
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Default Re: Fifty caliber under the hood? How Gauche.

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Originally Posted by hal View Post
Assuming that the size classification of mid-sized cars haven't changed since Car Wars came out, it appears that the Prius would be categorized as a mid-sized vehicle per the specs on it online.
I think you're good to assume the mid-sized body hasn't changed.

I just compared the body statistics between these two versions of Car Wars:
  • My 1983 pocket box
  • My 1989 First Edition Car Wars Compendium
The attributes all match with the exception that the Compendium has a listing for Camper which appears to compromise the better maximum load of the Pickup with the added spaces in a Van.
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Old 11-17-2018, 03:40 PM   #12
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Default Re: Fifty caliber under the hood? How Gauche.

Well, the Prius is pretty tall (I've driven one), but it's no Mustang or Maverick. It's also, as per the video, a pretty light weight and light duty vehicle.
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Old 11-17-2018, 04:07 PM   #13
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Default Re: Fifty caliber under the hood? How Gauche.

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Well, the Prius is pretty tall (I've driven one), but it's no Mustang or Maverick. It's also, as per the video, a pretty light weight and light duty vehicle.
That's why I'm looking into what went into the game design back in 1981 when they named the various classes they did, and then try to relate it to real world information such as curb weight, shadow area etc. Problem is - cars built in the 1980's (well, let's go back to the 70's on up to the 80's) were heavier. More steel, less plastics - then go to where the current day says what the cars have to be to qualify for a given qualifier.

Point is - it would likely be hard to quantify what the real world analogs would be for the car wars as the data doesn't seem to be there and there doesn't seem to be a designer's notes for the game :(

Tom H's comment that the mid-size hasn't changed much in classification is probably right, but there's dead, and then there's mostly dead to quote a line from a book/movie.

In the end, my guess is that the Prius - because it was built in an era where the common build style is to use plastics etc so as to get the car weights down in an effort to improve MPG ratings - would likely NOT be the same car that is designed via CAR WARS design system. But what nags at me is this:

Why is the armor material said to be plastics and the like if it wasn't intended to be a common build material for cars? *sigh*

Trying to read the mind(s) of the game's original designers back from the 1980's is probably a thankless task.
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Old 11-17-2018, 04:14 PM   #14
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Default Re: Fifty caliber under the hood? How Gauche.

Curb weight is the normal weight of everything for a vehicle - tires, transmission fluids, oil for normal operation etc. In theory, it is the unladen weight of the car in the sense of no passengers or cargo.

Car Wars goes on to say that the max weight includes the weight of the frame and everything else - which implies that it is very close to the curb weight in my mind (showing all work/thoughts in case they need correction!).

Max weight seems to be (based on classification) a value that ranges between 1.3 (subcompact) to 2.06 (see below) times the frame weight. Changes to suspension of course, changes the ratio...

Subcompact: 1.3
Compact: 1.85
Mid-sized: 2
Sedan: 2
Luxury: 2.06
Station wagon: 2.06
Pickup: 2.1
Camper: 1.83
Van: 2

So, the idea is to see (largely out of curiosity - possibly for use with later conversions of real world data to Car Wars perhaps) what the real world data relationship is to the Car Wars data...

Addenda: It appears that the modern classifications for how much volume in cubic feet assigned to passengers/driver plus cargo exceed the values given in GURPS AUTODUEL for the ENTIRE vehicle of a given class. <sigh>

Last edited by hal; 11-17-2018 at 04:43 PM. Reason: Addenda added
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Old 11-17-2018, 04:47 PM   #15
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Default Re: Fifty caliber under the hood? How Gauche.

I believe Steve Jackson does post every now and then. You might prod him for an answer.

Good luck with your efforts. I'm not sure that materials used to build a car have much to do with the space it provides. My old 87 Acura could seat 4 people, five if you really pushed it, but not much room for much else. It had about as much interior passenger space as a Volkswagen Rabbit (Gulf), but a bit more cargo, and a slightly larger and more powerful engine. Either way, I wouldn't classify it as a mid sized, but a compact.

A subcompact is more Triumph, MG, MR2 range. And the Prius has quite a bit of headroom, but it's relatively thin.
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Old 11-18-2018, 02:49 PM   #16
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Default Re: Fifty caliber under the hood? How Gauche.

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Don't just say "illegal". Say why it is illegal. :)
Compacts cannot mount 5 space EWPs.
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Old 11-18-2018, 03:28 PM   #17
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Default Re: Fifty caliber under the hood? How Gauche.

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So, the idea is to see (largely out of curiosity - possibly for use with later conversions of real world data to Car Wars perhaps) what the real world data relationship is to the Car Wars data...
I'm not fully sure of your ultimate aim here, but unfortunately we get trapped by taking Car Wars too seriously.

I hate to admit it, but Car Wars is largely fantasy masquerading as harder science fiction.

The frustration comes when the designers tease you with real world analogues and justifications.

Here are just a few examples of reality issues:

Car turning rates are very optimistic with tepid justification coming from the advanced electric drive systems.

Weapon load-outs and the strength-to-weight ratio of armor go far beyond "cars" and most military applications.

More to the last point, I initially participated in the exclusive Car Wars 6th edition threads following the backing of Ogre Designers Edition sometime around 2013. Kromm, the GURPS line editor, emphasized the difficulty of translating Car Wars to Autoduel as GURPS is more rigorous with its reality modelling.

In those discussion, I advocated for a return to stronger real world connections. However, the prevailing theme and design criteria centered on fun, action-packed cinema.

This may have its merits, as a true Car Wars arms race would probably appear and play much more like a classic game of mechanized military tactics.

I would still like to see a real game of vehicular dog fighting, but several constraints and justification would have to be imposed to keep your vehicle alive longer than the first impact of a guided HEAT projectile. For example, post-apocalyptic technical resources are constrained, or social or legal convention prohibits the ubiquitous use of military technology.

However, the recent technological rise of Active Protection Systems that intercept powerful projectiles provides a basis for doing something more realistic that could still have an interesting, fun play experience.

Last edited by Tom H.; 11-18-2018 at 04:16 PM. Reason: Spelling
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Old 11-18-2018, 03:45 PM   #18
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Default Re: Fifty caliber under the hood? How Gauche.

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However, the recent technological rise of Active Protection Systems that intercept powerful projectiles provides a basis for doing something more realistic that could still have an interesting, fun play experience.
Just to demonstrate that last point more:

Hard-kill active protection systems more reasonably justify the concept of "ablative armor" in that your "armor" becomes "penetrated" as soon as you expend all your anti-missile countermeasures.

You can also delve into the details of your rate of deploying countermeasures vs. the rate of attacks invading your space.

Last edited by Tom H.; 11-18-2018 at 04:07 PM. Reason: Spelling
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Old 11-18-2018, 03:58 PM   #19
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Default Re: Fifty caliber under the hood? How Gauche.

Active Protection Systems may actually increase the value of low-caliber (20 mm?) auto cannons.

They would hit the sweet spot between reasonable armor weight vs. gun bullets and the futility of exhausting hard-kill countermeasures against a rain of individual projectiles.

Last edited by Tom H.; 11-18-2018 at 04:07 PM. Reason: Spelling
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Old 11-18-2018, 04:36 PM   #20
hal
 
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Default Re: Fifty caliber under the hood? How Gauche.

I always had the impression that actual military munitions in the hands of civilian car wars warriors would result in a military style environment. ;)

So yes, Car Wars is a fantasy more than anything else as you point out. Ah well, life goes on. One of the things that I did an analysis on with regards to the CAR WARS frames was not only the max weight to frame weight ratio - but also the weight per space ratio for max weight. Later on, when I get the chance, I'm going to trick out an ordinary non-fighting Car Wars design just to see what the "stock car" option looks like. Then compare it to the curb weights of modern cars just to see what that looks like. I guess I'm just bored or something. ;)
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