01-02-2017, 06:42 PM | #11 |
Join Date: Jun 2013
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Re: Trouble with Armor and Worldbuilding
Finding advanced armor in ancient ruins is hardly difficult to justify - they're from an advanced, fallen civilization. Heck, we only just recently figured out how to actually make Damascus steel again, and that stuff was TL 2 (Fantasy Tech calls it azalum and has it as TL 2^, but that's because it makes it cinematically awesome).
For the rest, we've got the problem that you want Plate, Brigandine, and Transitional Armor to all exist side by side. Well... that's really not too big of a problem. From what I understand, Transitional Armor is mostly just Plate that is restricted to smaller pieces (and note Instant Armor has plenty of Plate that is available in iron/steel at TL 2-3). Proper Plate requires more than (traditionally closely-guarded) knowledge - it also requires the skill, resources, and tools for creating much larger plates than is typically done. As such are in short supply, most soldiers have to make due with the inferior Transitional Armor, which also has the advantage of costing less than proper plate. Another option would be to say that armorers can't typically manage proper Plate thicker than DR 4, so if you want greater protection you need to go with Transitional Armor. An alternative method is to state that proper Plate cannot be made with iron/steel with the setting's technology, so all such armor has to be made from bronze, which of course is incredibly expensive. The issue is having Transitional Armor and Brigandine exist side-by-side - while some of Transitional Armor is really just Plate in certain locations, some of it is instead either Segmented Plate or a Coat of Plates, both of which are inferior to Brigandine. Now, unless I'm mistaken, strapping the metal plates inside of the garment rather than outside leaves the armorer with much less room for error on getting the measurements right, at least to get things to fit together well enough for Brigandine's weight reduction. While that doesn't necessarily require great amounts of resources, it does require a degree of skill that might be rather hard to come by, which would justify its rarity and higher cost. If desired, instead of making Brigandine x2 to price for being +1 TL, consider instead making it +50%. So, for Torso armor (and possibly upper arm/leg armor) and DR 3, you can go with Transitional (Segmented, $600, 12* lb), Brigandine ($1350**, 10 lb), or Plate ($2000, 8 lb), which gives you a decent spread that justifies a variety of armor being encountered on the battlefield. *See here. Note Dan Howard's the guy who wrote the armor part of Low Tech, so you can probably consider that post to have some authority. **Personally, I'd likely round down to $1200 (+33%) or up to $1500 (+67%). Of course, as $1300 is literally right between the cost for Segmented and Plate, using that might be an option as well. |
01-02-2017, 09:02 PM | #12 | |
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Central Europe
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Re: Trouble with Armor and Worldbuilding
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Our fourteenth century had significantly different armour worn in northern Germany, England, and southern Iberia and the only monsters in the way were human! High-tech manufacturing spreads slowly, especially between civilizations and climate regions.
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01-03-2017, 06:52 AM | #13 | |
On Notice
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Sumter, SC
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Re: Trouble with Armor and Worldbuilding
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01-03-2017, 10:50 AM | #14 | |
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Central Europe
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Re: Trouble with Armor and Worldbuilding
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We know that the South German cities slowly learned to compete with and then surpass the Italian ones for cheap mass-produced plate, and we know that print had nothing to do with it, because no books ever described how plate armour was made in more detail than you could get by wandering through a few shops. The same with some textile industries. When Europeans wanted to learn to make porcelain, they did not send someone to buy a Chinese book on the subject with pocket change (books were cheaper in China than Europe in the 18th century) because none of them could have read it and the porcelain manufacturers did not describe their trade secrets in writing. Even worse, I don't know of any early handbook which describes the division of labour, organization of all stages in the production process, agreement to standardize different tools and products, etc. which were key to even late medieval high-tech industry like weaving. (Guild regulations get very detailed). Sorting those issues out was necessary if a town wanted to compete on cost, and not just offer different products.
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"It is easier to banish a habit of thought than a piece of knowledge." H. Beam Piper This forum got less aggravating when I started using the ignore feature Last edited by Polydamas; 01-03-2017 at 11:04 AM. |
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01-03-2017, 02:51 PM | #15 |
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
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Re: Trouble with Armor and Worldbuilding
Dubious. Effective production of movable type requires fairly advanced metallurgy and casting methods (Gutenberg was forced to invent new technologies for both, but had the advantage of a high technological base).
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01-03-2017, 04:30 PM | #16 |
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: The Fine Line Between Black and White
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Re: Trouble with Armor and Worldbuilding
I seem to vaguely remember Rome having a sudden TL jump by studying old ruins. One of those ninja turtle artists had a hard time convincing workers that his florentine domes would stay up until he went up there and started building it himself.
I think its entirely plausible there's an armor renaissance going on. Some armorers are set in their ways, others dont have the equipment, information or both, but a great many simply don't believe the new techniques are real. Any examples shown must be parlor tricks. "Sure its stronger but it must have taken months to make a piece that can beat my brigandeen! Youre just trying to steal my customers!" Further still, the new armors attract emboldened brigands who've heard ill rumors, thinking they'll pierce through like paper. So customers shy from its lethal attention grabbing characteristics. This rumor isnt self correcting because those same brigands usually die pretty hard.
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. ( )( ) -This is The Overlord Bunny o(O.o)o -Master of Bunnies O('')('') -And Destroyer of the Hasenpfeffer "This is the sort of relatively small error that destroys planetary probes." ~Bruno Last edited by Blood Legend; 01-03-2017 at 04:33 PM. |
01-04-2017, 12:04 AM | #17 |
Join Date: Dec 2016
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Re: Trouble with Armor and Worldbuilding
It isn't unusual in fantasy to have a group or groups having varying tech levels. For example, Elves are often more advanced in the ways of magic (due to inherent magical abilities, long lives spans, etc.). Maybe its a carefully guarded secret, passed on only within the group and uses advanced enough techniques or magic that the other groups simply can't figure it out on their own.
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01-04-2017, 07:58 AM | #18 |
On Notice
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Sumter, SC
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Re: Trouble with Armor and Worldbuilding
As James Burke described it the process was well within the TL2 Rome had: Design a reusable mold (bronze statues), carve the letter in a soft copper bar (around since the Greeks), and pour molten lead in the mold (Romans used lead for the pipes). Nothing in that list was beyond the ability of the TL2 Romans.
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01-04-2017, 08:22 AM | #19 | |
On Notice
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Sumter, SC
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Re: Trouble with Armor and Worldbuilding
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The first known Encyclopedia was Natural History and dates from c77 CE. It consisted of 37 chapters spread over 10 books. Latin had been standardized 75 BCE and when the Western Roman empire fell apart it became the defacto international language of what had been the Western Roman empire. Because the Muslim world, India, and China didn't have this common language cultural exchange between their cultures and the old Western Roman Empire was limited. |
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01-04-2017, 08:36 AM | #20 | |
Night Watchman
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Cambridge, UK
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Re: Trouble with Armor and Worldbuilding
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Tags |
armor, fantasy, low-tech, opinions, worldbuilding |
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