[Errata] G3 and M14

[nik1979]

Please check if these is correct.

Market price of M1A (civlian and semi-auto version) costs $1640 at Springfield Armory At $600 per M14 its almost 1/3 the price of the civlian version. I don't know if anyone finds $600 battlerifle unbalanced for a game or considers that if it 40% cheaper than the cheapest battle rifle there should be a catch?

Reversing the Civilian Modification Rules, the M14 is $2000. It makes sense when compared to the FN Fal and the G3.

As for the G3 being Heavier than the M14. I noticed the weight is 9.7lbs for the G3. the weight in HT is 11.4 which is the weigh to the Rifle WITH the magazine of 1.7lbs.

I'm not entirely sure if I'm in the right here, that is why I'm asking.

[Phoenix_Dragon]

I believe weapon weights in GURPS are for loaded weapons (Since that would be the most common state when gearing a character).

[nik1979]

Thanks, but does that means that the M14 should be heavier then?

From an example of M14, it should be 11.5+1.6 or 13.1/1.6

[rosignol]

Originally Posted by nik1979

Please check if these is correct.

Market price of M1A (civlian and semi-auto version) costs $1640 at Springfield Armory At $600 per M14 its almost 1/3 the price of the civlian version. I don't know if anyone finds $600 battlerifle unbalanced for a game or considers that if it 40% cheaper than the cheapest battle rifle there should be a catch?

IIRC, the prices in the book is the price when the product was first produced. For the M1A, that means there's been ~35 years of inflation since then.

More generally, gear isn't meant to be balanced in GURPS any more than gear is meant to be balanced in the real world. Some stuff is better than others, some stuff is more cost-effective than others, and some stuff just plain stinks.

[HANS]

Originally Posted by nik1979

Market price of M1A (civlian and semi-auto version) costs $1640 at Springfield Armory

And now look what the Springfield M1A costs in High-Tech, p. 115.

Originally Posted by nik1979

At $600 per M14 its almost 1/3 the price of the civlian version. I don't know if anyone finds $600 battlerifle unbalanced for a game or considers that if it 40% cheaper than the cheapest battle rifle there should be a catch?

No. The costs in High-Tech have absolutely NOTHING to do with game balance and everything with what the items actually cost.

Originally Posted by nik1979

As for the G3 being Heavier than the M14. I noticed the weight is 9.7lbs for the G3. the weight in HT is 11.4 which is the weigh to the Rifle WITH the magazine of 1.7lbs.

All weights given are loaded. This is explained on p. B270.

Originally Posted by nik1979

I'm not entirely sure if I'm in the right here, that is why I'm asking.

None of this is errata.

Cheers

HANS

[HANS]

Originally Posted by nik1979

Thanks, but does that means that the M14 should be heavier then?

From an example of M14, it should be 11.5+1.6 or 13.1/1.6

No. The weight given by Max there (5.1 kg or 11.2 lbs.) is loaded, including full magazine, rifle sling, and cleaning kit in the stock. This is not errata.

Cheers

HANS

[nik1979]

i am aware that all stats have nothing to do with game balance. What I meant by balanced is Economic Repercussions of Tradeoffs. In Manufacturing, in the end prices reflect the quality of the product (something I'm familiar with as it is my companys job) especially when it comes to machined parts of technology almost half a century old.

My curiosity is that if it is $600 as you say it is in Prices of the time it was issued then they failed to take into account 2004 inflation prices which ALL GURPS equipment have been standardized to use.

Second, IF the gun really is $600 then REALISTICALLY there are consequences to that, the same as the consequences to the AK and the SKS being one of the cheapest GUN in the market.

Third, I am looking for the Sources that SAY that the stats are what they say they are. Having my own G3 replica and a friends M14 replica I differ about what they HT says about the gun and I cannot find supporting sources that say a M14 is Lighter than a G3 except for the EBR and more modern plastic composite versions.

It might not be a big deal, but a $600 battle rifle is when negotiating a military contract the bottom line is that MOST armies will be using that battle rifle. Instead, I see the G3 taking that role and it going on the market for $800. As terms to which stats are more "realistic" Market forces are a pretty good determinant.

I am also assuming, the sources could be biased because of tarrifs and the fact that it is local manufacturing for local market vs export market. If the foreign made guns are double the cost because they are made outside the US, then the prices of the guns should be taken how much it would cost outside the US with special rules saying how much it would cost if your country was producing it.

Edit: As for usage, checking the list of countries that use which gun and their relative wealth. G3 have 14 licensed manufacturers and 50+ countries using it in their armed forces. As for the m14 has 8 licensed producers.

[tratclif]

Do note that the price of civilian semi-auto weapons has gone insane in the US over the past 2 years, I would not be surprised at all if the same weapon was available for 1/3 the price in 2004.

[nik1979]

Originally Posted by tratclif

Do note that the price of civilian semi-auto weapons has gone insane in the US over the past 2 years, I would not be surprised at all if the same weapon was available for 1/3 the price in 2004.

then the question then is Why the price went up.

If it was because of subsidies or market surplus due to war then the prices going up reflects normalization. An oversupplying Arms, because of a poorly accounted contract leads to a surplus which in the end the Investor pays for.

Cheaper goods that were ordered but not consumed by the government are sold off as surplus, with price difference coming from the Taxpayer. Thats why Just-in-time management keeps costs down, surpluses at a minimum and makes Taxpayer dollar gets more value.

Surplus costs Inventory, Transportation, and Marketing (trying to sell them off and make people aware of it) with the person stuck with it. Don't be happy when the government has a "surplus" be more critical because in the bottom line the citizen pays these extras... not to mention who ever was in charge could have questionable motivation how it got to a surplus (bribes from the manufacturer or a conflict of interest).

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by nik1979

then the question then is Why the price went up.

....and the answer is anticipated gun control legislation from the Obama administration and the Democratic Congress (whether that expectation is reasonable or not). This has raised demand tremendously.