[Alt. History] captive Napolean

[jason taylor]

I would think they wkould treat him as another fugitive pretender would be. They would give him hospitality as a diplomatic card, as reciprocity in case their VIPs have to go on the lam, and as good manners. However it is not somehow a better option for someone who wants to reuse Boney then Elba. He was you know, King of Elba making an escape extremely easy. Whereas if he ended up in the US people might shrug and say good riddance the way they do when dictators end up in Monte Carlo. After all if he declares himself King of America without an army to back him, the response will just be something like, "phooey on you." He might conceivably be offered a commission in the US army though however useful he was, he would be a dangerous person to be given such a chance.

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by Dalillama

Why on Earth would they do such a thing? Also how? Napoleon surrendered on terms, which terms included an honour guard who went to Elba with him. The reason he was sent to Elba is that, unlike Louisiana, Elba wasn't full of French people who would be likely to form a loyal army for Napoleon's triumphant return.

Elba did just that in real life and it did have lots of French people. A number of Guardsmen went with him to Elba.

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

Local officials are in a state of consternation over having Napoleon in New Orleans. They don't think he qualifies as a US prisoner of war, though he was found aboard an enemy vessel. .

He isn't, he is a foreign dignitary. They don't don't think he qualifies as a US prisoner of war, they know he does not. The closest thing to prisoner he would be is under house arrest to keep him from causing trouble.

He would be in the same position as Trotsky was in Istanbul. He could have been uncommonly inconvenient to the Turkish authorities but they just let him live the life of any other exile.

[Dalillama]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

Napoleon and his family are being transported aboard the HMS Epervier which is taken near Cape Canaveral on 29 June, 1814* by the USS Peacock. The Peacock takes the Epervier to New Orleans to be sold as a prize. The captain of the Peacock has also claimed as part of the prize, the monies that were to set Napoleon up in business.
.

I'm not an expert on 18th century admiralty law, but I'm pretty sure a prize court would immediately reverse that and make him give the money back.

Originally Posted by jason taylor

Elba did just that in real life and it did have lots of French people. A number of Guardsmen went with him to Elba.

Elba had a population of 12,000, about 1000 of whom were French. Lousiana had a population of ~100,000, of whom AFAICT ~50,000 might well consider themselves French. OTOH, Louisiana has the advantage over Elba of being several thousand miles further from France, which would make the trick he pulled in OTL of just hopping aboard the naval vessel he was (inexpicably IMO) allowed to maintain and sailing ~300 miles home much harder. The idea that he'd end up in Louisiana basically penniless, as the OP suggested, is a harder sell.

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by Dalillama

I'm not an expert on 18th century admiralty law, but I'm pretty sure a prize court would immediately reverse that and make him give the money back.


Elba had a population of 12,000, about 1000 of whom were French. Lousiana had a population of ~100,000, of whom AFAICT ~50,000 might well consider themselves French. OTOH, Louisiana has the advantage over Elba of being several thousand miles further from France, which would make the trick he pulled in OTL of just hopping aboard the naval vessel he was (inexpicably IMO) allowed to maintain and sailing ~300 miles home much harder. The idea that he'd end up in Louisiana basically penniless, as the OP suggested, is a harder sell.

He would hardly end up penniless. That would be against the period's idea of good manners. He would however not have a sovereignty.

In Louisiana everything he did would be watched by suspicious people waiting for him to make a comeback conspiracy. On Elba he could simply use his natural authority to make a landing in France. Which be it known had a considerable population which considered themselves Frenchmen.

[RyanW]

To make the scenario a little more believable, what if the British exile Napoleon to somewhere in the Caribbean, but a bad storm drives the ship ashore in the Mississippi Territory? Captured/rescued by Andrew Jackson's forces in the Creek War.

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by jason taylor

He isn't, he is a foreign dignitary. They don't don't think he qualifies as a US prisoner of war, they know he does not. The closest thing to prisoner he would be is under house arrest to keep him from causing trouble.

He would be in the same position as Trotsky was in Istanbul. He could have been uncommonly inconvenient to the Turkish authorities but they just let him live the life of any other exile.

I'm sure they know he isn't a U.S. prisoner of war as well, which would have greatly simplified his status. The consternation arises from the question as to his status on the U.K. ship. The war is technically over, so he wasn't a prisoner of war, as such. On the other hand, he was almost certainly still a prisoner of the British (and the Allies might still have a claim that he's a joint prisoner). That leads to the question of what to do with him. Releasing him will almost certainly anger the U.K., and the Allies as well. OTOH, normal U.S. usage probably is to free captives found aboard captured enemy vessels.

Originally Posted by Dalillama

I'm not an expert on 18th century admiralty law, but I'm pretty sure a prize court would immediately reverse that and make him give the money back.

It might, after it had processed the claim. I didn't claim that it wouldn't. However, thinking about it, it might not, even if it wanted to. The question would hinge on whether Napoleon could prove that it was his money. If it was in his personal possession, or among his chattels, he would probably get it back. If it's in a chest or strongbox in the master's quarters, it starts to get more questionable. And that's assuming that it actually is Napoleon's money.

If the money isn't to be given to Napoleon until Guadeloupe was made, then at the time the prize capture was made, the money doesn't belong to Napoleon. The question then becomes, is it to be treated as belonging solely to the UK government, in which case it's all prize, or does it belong to the Allies, in which case it may be possible to claim that portion which the UK put up as prize.

It's not likely, but if the Allies may not have intended Napoleon to ever lay his hands on all the money. Perhaps they give him several pieces of scrip, one to purchase the plantation, one to staff it, one for wardrobe, and so on. As Napoleon makes his purchases, he pays with scrip, which the ship's master redeems with gold. Only once Napoleon is truly settled in as a plantation owner is any remaining cash released to Napoleon, thereby preventing him from using the monies to raise an armed force, or so it is hoped.

I agree that he isn't likely to be penniless in New Orleans but having his potential wealth tied up in a dispute at prize court, will get him in a position close to the OP's original desire.

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by Dalillama

Having confirmed the dates, also remember that the U.S. and Great Britain were still in a state of active war at the time of Napoleon's surrender, a war which the U.S. entered as an ally of France. There is no world in whivh your scenario is plausible, I'm afraid. Possibly a history where his honour guard fought him clear and he and the survivors fled to their American allies to rally French America and keep the fight going. Quebec would probably declare for him pretty quick, and Louisiana

Lower Canada probably won't declare for him, quickly or otherwise. Historically, Quebec was separated from France when it was still a monarchy. It remembers the American Revolution's attempt to overthrow the monarch as an attempt by those Boston merchants to suppress Catholicism, the French language and French civil law by invading Montreal and Quebec. Just to make matters worse, they also tried to palm paper money off on the merchants of Lower Canada. (Lower Canada had experience with paper money in the form of "playing card money" during the Ancien Regieme, and it didn't evoke fond memories.) The French Revolution was regarded as more of the same and the rise of Napoleon didn't attract Lower Canadians. If anything, it cemented their allegiance to the UK.

[Michele]

The USA let Napoleon settle down where he wishes, and give him back the money he was carrying, provided that he isn't bent on stirring up any kind of trouble whatsoever. People coming to visit him will be closely monitored, and quietly questioned after before being admitted and after they leave. He'll be allowed to write his memoirs or things like that, living as a retired foreign VIP.

The moment it seems he's going to cause problems, he'll be threatened to be declared persona non grata. In that case he'd be deported to his country - which doesn't mean he'll be allowed to reach France, but that he'll be delivered to a French ship, manned by a rabidly royalist crew. Theoretically they should bring him to Elba. So maybe he'll stir up trouble on purpose, since Elba is much closer to France.

But who knows what will happen during the journey. Bonapartist corsairs free him and urge him to go back to Paris as the Emperor? Or, more likely, an unfortunate accident takes place? Or the French officially stick to their word that he'll be brought to Elba, but for some reason there is a long, long stop at Fort-de-France, and...