[Social Engineering] Charisma treated inconsistently with BIO/Basic

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

I am just creeped out by individuals that get fan clubs when nothing they say or do merits it. I have a brother like that, and it irritates me.

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

To me it looks almost like mind control, when people fawn over others when nothing that is said or done comes close to meriting such adoration.

That's Delusion (People judge other people on merit) [-1 to -15]. Most people judge others on the basis of how well they insert themselves into dominant roles (appropriate or not), shmooze, and convey the impression that they would be a useful ally (true or not); that's more disposition than skill, looks, or voice. Moreover, there's an "accretion" effect whereby once somebody wins over one person, other people regard the individual who did the attracting in a favorable light because somebody else does; this can snowball. Judging others entirely on the basis of statements and achievements seems genuinely delusional in the corporate hiring world, when dealing with service professionals (waiters, flight attendants, etc.), and in the typical party scene. Whether judging on the grounds of "charisma" or whatever you call it is more or less common than doing so on the basis of looks, voice, dress sense, etc. is a harder call, but collectively, looks, manner, voice, and style count for far more than skills and accomplishments, however much accomplished, skilled people may resent that.

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

I would like to interact with others in a truthful way in which my words and actions have an effect rather than some creepy micro-social cues determining others' responses.

If I say or do something stupid, I want others to realize it was stupid, not find it cute and endearing.

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

If anything, I pity people like my brother. They don't get "real" feedback on their actions, and nearly everything they say or do is given a positive and often useless spin.

That's a separate case of Delusion (Most people want real feedback, and to be judged on their merits). Most people definitely do not want that. They want as short a shortcut to popularity and position as possible, and don't much care that some of the popularity is spin. It's real enough for their ego, which is what matters. This is why the vast majority of people react very, very poorly to criticism, even the constructive kind.

Wanting to be judged on merit, and only judging others on merit, puts a person into a category where others will react poorly to them and think they're kind of crazy. Delusion fits. From my understanding of psychology, narcissism and self-importance are to an extent strategically valuable traits, as long as they don't get out of hand. Those who don't have them in any real measure are effectively "not playing the game," and by some definitions aren't "normal."

[cmdicely]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

How about those of us so blind to social interaction that charisma rubs us the wrong way if we notice it at all?

It sounds to me like its mostly something like Unfazeable (affects Charisma modifiers only, say -70%), plus Intolerance (to people who are popular for for reasons which don't seem apparent to you, often--but not exclusively--because they have Charisma) for -5 points, netting to zero-point combination.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Wanting to be judged on merit, and only judging others on merit, puts a person into a category where others will react poorly to them and think they're kind of crazy. Delusion fits. From my understanding of psychology, narcissism and self-importance are to an extent strategically valuable traits, as long as they don't get out of hand. Those who don't have them in any real measure are effectively "not playing the game," and by some definitions aren't "normal."

I really wish you were wrong here but sadly have to agree.
People ask me for my opinion all the time and most of the time they do not really want it there just looking for an ego stroke. Or vindication and worse a positive reference.
And I take a lot of heat about it, know its coming but still cant help myself when they outright ask me to tell them what I think of their work.
I have learned enough not to offer (most of the time) anything but compliments if I am not asked though :) At least in real life, forums fall under the heading IMHO of you post it your asking for feedback.

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by Turhan's Bey Company

IIRC, this was debated at some length during playtest and eventually largely if not entirely accepted there, with many of the same examples invoked in discussion. Disagree with making the Basic Set's "actively interact" more explicit if you will, but this is not a single writer's personal prejudice being slipped in without anybody noticing or saying anything about it.

And even if William's personal prejudices are included in the text, he has run a lot of campaigns dealing with the subject matter of the PDF, so his prejudices are quite likely to be qualified prejudices.

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty

If you want to ignore this clarification and treat Charisma as "+1 to reactions from anyone who sees you, hears you, reads your words, or even thinks of you" in your games, you can, but realize that Charisma is worth far more than the listed 5 points/level if that's the case.

For a long time, probably well over a decade (I bought Basic 3Er i 1998), I've thought of GURPS as built around the assumption that "+1 to Reaction Rolls costs 5 CPs", in much the same way Hero System is built around "1d6 of damage costs 5 points").

It's seen in Status, partially in Military and Adminidstrative Rank, and Charisma and Appearance and Voice.

I'm not too happy about it, particularly stacking lots of such bonuses (but that particular problem can be solved with an UB for high RR bonuses), but it seems to be almost a core component of GURPS.

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty

Odious Personal Habits are the usual way to handle that. You can have a vague OPH -- "Rubs everyone the wrong way" is a bit boring, but valid.

But is it good that it is symmetrically priced with Charisma? +1 to RR for 5 CP, -1 to RR for 5 CP?

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

How about those of us so blind to social interaction that charisma rubs us the wrong way if we notice it at all?

I'm not sure Charisma can rub someone the wrong way, but the apparent social success of a Charismatic individual might create resentment. Unless, like me, one has decided that the pursuit of rightness is much more important than the pursuit of cuddliness.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

For a long time, probably well over a decade (I bought Basic 3Er i 1998), I've thought of GURPS as built around the assumption that "+1 to Reaction Rolls costs 5 CPs", in much the same way Hero System is built around "1d6 of damage costs 5 points").

It's seen in Status, partially in Military and Adminidstrative Rank, and Charisma and Appearance and Voice.

I'm not too happy about it, particularly stacking lots of such bonuses (but that particular problem can be solved with an UB for high RR bonuses), but it seems to be almost a core component of GURPS.

Yeah that is one of the things I am hoping this book will address, though limited hope since it is not meant to replace the rules.
But a social genius and expert is very cheap compared to a combat expert or inventor or mage. I think it is ok to be cheaper but not that cheap in comparison.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Refplace

People ask me for my opinion all the time and most of the time they do not really want it there just looking for an ego stroke. Or vindication and worse a positive reference.

And I take a lot of heat about it, know its coming but still cant help myself when they outright ask me to tell them what I think of their work.

I have learned enough not to offer (most of the time) anything but compliments if I am not asked though :)

Oh, I certainly have that Delusion at the quirk level! ;) I often fall into the trap of giving real criticism when asked rather than being a yes-man as expected. It isn't helped by the fact that I'm an editor, and offering real criticism is a huge part of what pays my rent and feeds me. But it's only a quirk for me because I learned in my early adult years that you get a lot further in life if your words are little white lies rather than an honest assessment when you aren't expressly asked to be as critical as possible.

Originally Posted by Refplace

But a social genius and expert is very cheap compared to a combat expert or inventor or mage.

Although that's a tricky thing to tinker with, because in the overwhelming majority of RPG campaigns – GURPS ones included – being a social monster pays off less often. Some GMs completely nerf the concept. Even in my secret-agents campaign where much of the interaction is social, not sneaking or action, there are times when I feel sorry for the dedicated social engineer and deliberately toss in talky situations around and between shooting and stealth so that her points don't look wasted. The other area where this comes up is realistic medical skills (as opposed to superhuman healing abilities).

[pawsplay]

People who react badly to Charisma are probably Selfish, because they feel competive toward them. They might also have Jealousy, of course.

I really question whether Charisma is sight and hearing based, and reverse sense-based. That would imply Deaf people are immune to Charisma.

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

That's not how I define jealousy. I find their ability creepy, and others' reactions either weak-willed or just plain creepy as well. Also, I don't see it coming off the charismatic person.

If anything, I pity people like my brother. They don't get "real" feedback on their actions, and nearly everything they say or do is given a positive and often useless spin. It's like being a boss surrounded by yes-men no matter what you do.

I admit I may have been jealous of his ability growing up. But that time is long since passed

That sounds like it might be a negative reaction to a Smooth Operator.