What GURPS needs... now

[lordabdul]

Originally Posted by whswhs

Well, actually, the hit location chart is in Chapter 13, Special Combat Situations, which comes after Chapter 12, Tactical Combat, and seems thus to be just as much marked off as separate from the core combat rules in Chapter 11.

True. I remembered wrong, I thought it was placed in the other chapter, but then again I frankly always get lost between the various sections of the combat rules. I thought stuff like Knockback qualified as optional rules, too, but it doesn't say anything of the sort so I guess it's part of the "basic" rules.

Originally Posted by Gollum

Yes, you're right! And since I think that everyone around understood what I wanted to mean, I have to stop trying to find new arguments - which don't really add anything interesting to that debate.

I agree that GURPS Lite would benefit from having a task difficulty modifier table -- the paragraph about roll modifiers does seem incomplete in retrospect, and virtually all RPGs have such a table.

That said, I didn't understand your point with your example of a character aiming at an NPC's head -- the speed/range modifier table is in GURPS Lite so the GM has everything they need to come up with a modifier, no? The TDM table wouldn't help there.

I wonder if GURPS Lite was to be written today, if it would make more use of stuff like the simplified rules from GURPS Action 2 (going so far as to not even mention the speed/range table for instance... although that's tricky since it's on the character sheets too). I don't know if GURPS Lite is supposed to be a simplified GURPS Basic Set, or a playable subset of the GURPS Basic Set. The 2 approaches are probably valid, but you would end up with vastly different sets of rules depending on which one you'd choose.

[Gollum]

Originally Posted by lordabdul

That said, I didn't understand your point with your example of a character aiming at an NPC's head -- the speed/range modifier table is in GURPS Lite so the GM has everything they need to come up with a modifier, no? The TDM table wouldn't help there.

Aw ... OK! So, I was not as clear as I thought ... Hey, I suddenly realized that I mixed up two different points.

First point

GURPS Lite only answers partially to my example of situation. Yes, you've got the Size Speed/Range Table (page 28). You've also got some hints about light and darkness ("Visibility, Partial darkness, fog, smoke, etc.: -1 to -9 (GM’s option)", page 27) and you've got the stats for the Sniper Rifle ("Acc 6+3", page 22). But you are lacking hints about how to handle a head shot through a car door pan.

Whswhs' solution without hit location above is brilliant (thank you for it, Whswhs!), but it requires the Basic Set and I doubt a newcomer could find it. Despite of my experience, I didn't.

Personaly, I would have used the Size and Speed/Range table, considering that a head is about 1 feet tall, and assess a -5 modifier, but here again, it is an experienced game master's solution, not really the one of a newcomer.

Brief, my point was just to show that all that is very, very complicated for someone who discovers GURPS for the first time.

Second point

I find the table of Task Difficulty Modifiers very useful and, as it is explained in Basic Set, it can replace any other modifier.

It is what I wanted to show with my example and the two different ways the TDM can be used (with or without breakdown of the difficulty).

That is so easy to use it, and it makes the game so more quick to play that GURPS Lite would be much more attractive for newcomers if they had that table instead of all the the gritty modifiers.

I perfectly do recognize that the gritty modifiers are fun. They are what makes the game more realistic and it is why most of us (including I) love it. But I remain firmly convinced that if we really want to attract newcomers, we have to make the start much more simple for them.

..........

So, sorry to have mixed those two points. I didn't want to troll that thread but I was so struggling with my mixed arguments that it sounded like that.

[Gollum]

Originally Posted by lordabdul

I wonder if GURPS Lite was to be written today, if it would make more use of stuff like the simplified rules from GURPS Action 2 (going so far as to not even mention the speed/range table for instance... although that's tricky since it's on the character sheets too). I don't know if GURPS Lite is supposed to be a simplified GURPS Basic Set, or a playable subset of the GURPS Basic Set. The 2 approaches are probably valid, but you would end up with vastly different sets of rules depending on which one you'd choose.

GURPS Lite won't probably be written again. And, after more thinking about it, I doubt it would be a good idea. It is the best condensed of the rules we can have: a toolkit that you can bring with you everywhere ...

But, because of its complexity (compared with other roleplaying games' introduction) it is not really written for newcomers.

Actually, it is an amazing tool to help experienced games masters to introduce new players to GURPS. But you have to be a quite experienced game master to use it.

So, what is needed, in my humble opinion, is an introduction to GURPS specially designed for newcomers, with the simplest rules only. Something which is not designed to be as exhaustive as GURPS Lite, but which just allows to play the game, until the newcomer is comfortable enough to want some more details.

It could be named GURPS Beginner's Guide or something like that.

[dds_ks]

Originally Posted by Anthony

They don't need to be balanced for all games; that would be dumb. You can, for example, just assign the sword and sorcery setting chi powers (or w/e) so a sword does 10d damage and swordsmen can flash step across the battlefield. You can even do that in GURPS -- the problem is that it costs hundreds of points that the higher tech character doesn't need to pay.

Isn't there a spell in the movement college that allows a long-distance attack with a melee weapon? So one might think of adding one-college magery; that should be available for a maximum of 15 CP. To reduce the FP-cost of an ability (not a normal-cast spell), each reduction by one FP costs +20%, so you should be able to use melee weapons at distance for around 20 CP or something.

[dds_ks]

Originally Posted by Kalzazz

I tend not to use descriptions like yards or seconds in gameplay and use rounds and hexes instead

Funny thing: In other RPG systems we use floor plans with squares in combat a lot. But somehow it never seemed necessary to use a floor plan in GURPS, although I've prepared some plans with hexes.

But I don't think that using "rounds" instead of "seconds" makes a big difference if it's about attracting players.

[Stormcrow]

Originally Posted by lordabdul

I wonder if GURPS Lite was to be written today, if it would make more use of stuff like the simplified rules from GURPS Action 2 (going so far as to not even mention the speed/range table for instance... although that's tricky since it's on the character sheets too). I don't know if GURPS Lite is supposed to be a simplified GURPS Basic Set, or a playable subset of the GURPS Basic Set. The 2 approaches are probably valid, but you would end up with vastly different sets of rules depending on which one you'd choose.

GURPS Lite is meant to be a playable subset. Its subtitle is "An Introduction to Roleplaying," and its "about" paragraph says "This is the boiled-down 'essence' of GURPS: all the fundamental rules, but not the options and embellishments that often confuse new players. Once you’re comfortable with these rules, you can pick up the GURPS Basic Set and jump right into the action. Experienced Game Masters will, we hope, find this a valuable tool for introducing new players to the game." The explanation of "generic" also says "This abridged version presents the 'core rules' that most GMs start with."

[dds_ks]

Originally Posted by Gollum

Yes, that is exactly what I wanted to mean. You'll pass on that for now. And you are the only one who did begin to answer.

For me it's because I just read your question.
And in fact I don't think that this setting is realistic to come up in a game session: We can't assume that the car will always be 25 yards away, because aiming with a telescopic device at a target going 2/3 round you won't work. But this will at least tell us that the weapon is not braced...

The next point I would like to raise: The rules say that speed of the target is relevant. I, on the other hand, would only agree if the angle of the shot changes. So for me it's easier to assume that the car is driving straight on a street, I also stand in the middle of the street, so the angle won't change.

So "starting" distance is 25 yards, -7 for a shot without aiming.
If I aim for three rounds, the car has moved 105 yards, +25 for the starting point, that makes 130 yards, that's -11. As three rounds of aiming add more than +4 (accuracy +2), aiming is the better option. But is it the best option?
If you aim only for one round, the car moves to 60 yards, which is -9 and earns the full accuracy bonus. So the chance is the same as after three rounds of aiming, but you're faster. So that should be preferable, as you could use the other two rounds for another shot.
That again adds to the time you need for calculation.
O.K., one might say that the shooter couldn't realistically calculate that, but as a trained shooter he should be able to give an estimation.

About the Accuracy: There should be no need to calculate that part in the combat situation. The player should already have this noted on his character sheet.

Size modifier of the head... well, again: Is the system realistic? If you are in melee combat, which in most cases means that you attack from the front, it is easier to hit the face than the skull. But if you attack from the side or even from the back, it should be improbable or even impossible to hit the face (unless your bullet goes through the brain).

Light conditions... well, don't mention this.

At the end of the day, it seems that the shot is impossible with the modifiers.

But that's a point I already raised some time ago in a different discussion:
If you want to be a police officer in Germany, you have to succeed a pistol shooting test. Taking into account the distance and the size of the target, you would need to have a skill of 27 to make the test with a 90 % chance, and you only may try twice. But less than 1 % of all apprentice policemen fails the test. And please keep in mind: They are career starters, but the skill level needed would by much exceed the one marked "Olympic".
Well, GURPS has a rule for "plinking". That explains how they do their test. But shooting at the leg of a running criminal again seems to be quite impossible with GURPS skill levels.

My solution for the original question would be (in less than two seconds): I would just make up a modifier!

This shot should be improbable, but the PC is "the" (or more precisely "a") hero, so it should be possible. So I just tell him that his chance is a 7 (if I don't need the NPC) or a 5 (if I do need the NPC later - and if hit, I have to make something up to explain how he survived).
And if afterwards somebody does all the calculation and says that it would have been -7 or something, well, they might find out, but would they complain?

[Gollum]

Originally Posted by dds_ks

And if afterwards somebody does all the calculation and says that it would have been -7 or something, well, they might find out, but would they complain?

No, they wouldn't necessarily complain. Especially because, for most Player Characters, a -7 means that the effective skill is about 7.

Now, I still prefer a modifier than a flat number. A flat number doesn't take into account the skill and it is more enjoyable to think: "I missed because the difficulty was too high for my skill level." rather than: "I missed because I was just unlucky." Especially in a game supposed to be realistic - and even if there is still a part of chance in that game (like in real life, after all).

Indeed, if the skill plus the difficulty modifier made you miss, you can still console yourself by thinking: "One day, with experience and training, I will be able to succeed such a shot." If it's just a flat number, there is no consolation at all: even with a lot of experience and training, your chance will always be the same.

Note that, in GURPS, the fact that Player Characters are heroes is mainly expressed by their high attribute and skill levels. An heroic marksman certainly has a Guns basic skill of 20 or more. So, it wouldn't be very fair to make his player roll against a flat 7.

Also note that if you really want to be quick, you just have to take only one modifier on the table of Task Difficulty Modifiers. Very hard task, -7. Or, if you really want, Impossible task, -10. That is almost as simple as a flat number (and more enjoyable, for the player).

[sir_pudding]

I think if I were to write a lite GURPS from scratch, I would use both the range bands and BAD from Action instead of the SSR and specific modifiers to skills.

This seems like a good idea for a blog post, actually.

[JMason]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

I think if I were to write a lite GURPS from scratch, I would use both the range bands and BAD from Action instead of the SSR and specific modifiers to skills.

This seems like a good idea for a blog post, actually.

Okay, but would you have anything for making fast targets harder to hit? Range bands only covers range, right? Do you just give everything a dodge score?