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Old 12-14-2017, 05:42 PM   #81
mr beer
 
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Default Re: Gm limiting necromancy

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
Are zombies capable of defending themselves? Do they have self-preservation? Or do they always all-out attack when ordered to 'attack' and all-out defend when ordered to 'defend'?
I think that's a GM decision. Personally I think the idea of always using All Out for attack or defence is a good one, it fits the idea of these things being unsubtle meat machines.
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Old 12-14-2017, 05:48 PM   #82
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Default Re: Gm limiting necromancy

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Originally Posted by Railstar View Post
Well, you did ask such things as how do they know what "kill" or "stay" means. So we aren't talking past each other, what do you consider basic target discrimination, battlefield positioning, and really basic situational awareness?
You are a thing that is different and seperate from other things. When instructed, you can identify which things are targets and which things are part of the environment. When instructed you can tell the difference between things that are targets and similar things that are friendly. You have some awareness of positions and will be able to defend an area or assault a position if so ordered (i.e. "Kill enemies who try to come in here" or "Attack those guys at the top of that hill").

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When I think "you are defending this position" I take that as something which can mean holding the ground and keeping hold of it, or just seeking to deny said ground to the enemy. It goes beyond a simple directive of "kill them" and goes into the realms of a battle plan.
It matters to the "stay here" part of Fred's example not the "kill everyone who isn't me" part. They have to have an idea of what holding a position is in very general terms for that to make any sense. They need to be able to understand what staying in a position means (it doesn't literally mean "don't move") and what a position is ("here" being this room that they are defending and not the precise spot they are standing or the entire game world or whatever).

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Using literal wording with zombies, I could see a group of zombies attacking each other if given a poorly phrased command, although I guess that's just one of the inconsistencies that gets conveniently overlooked because not too many people want to spend too much time thinking about the exact phrase given to a zombie (usually in game I just recommend Magical Lawyer for necromancers and let the player give general orders on the basis of "my character is far better at wording these things than I am.")
"Magical Lawyer" is what exactly?

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How about the Romero-style zombie who never defends? It always attempts to grab and bite, never varies tactics, never attempts anything else other than grabbing and biting. Would you say the zombie was aware it was in combat? Because to me a huge staple of the zombie-movie tactics was that they worked because the zombies either didn't realise or didn't react to the fact they were in a fight.
The Cannon Fodder rules are certainly appropriate for flesh-eating B-Movie ghouls and might be appropriate for fantasy animated servitors, but aren't really relevant to this point. Whether they are in use or not, Attack is a combat maneuver and you can only logically take it if you are aware that you are a thing that can attack and that there are things that can be attacked.

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Not necessary for weapon skills, but for rudimentary tactics or other things reliant on IQ-based skills for some measure of decision-making or using judgement.
Icelander is claiming that the zombies you get from default casting of Zombie can't use weapons. This isn't correct, AFAICT and nothing in Zombies changes this.

Last edited by sir_pudding; 12-14-2017 at 06:04 PM.
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Old 12-14-2017, 06:28 PM   #83
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Default Re: Gm limiting necromancy

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
"Magical Lawyer" is what exactly?

.
A Perk. Basically a Rules Exemption Perk meaning that all of your orders to magical servitors are free of forseeable errors.

Among other things you never tell the genie to make you a milkshake.
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Old 12-14-2017, 07:36 PM   #84
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Default Re: Gm limiting necromancy

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
A Perk. Basically a Rules Exemption Perk meaning that all of your orders to magical servitors are free of forseeable errors.
From Magical Styles, I'm guessing? Makes sense. Thanks.

Although this won't help if your magical servitors aren't capable of comprehending any extremely basic battlefield tactics at all. Natural language programming only works if the automaton has a cognitive framework that allows it parse the commands at all. A robot weapon system that can understand conversational English but can't do edge detection or object discrimination at all isn't going to be able to execute your orders to target the enemy gun emplacements (without grid coordinates or something anyway) even if it understands the words.

Which is why I think we can assume that servitor undead do have this capability and they really don't have traits that say they shouldn't. Tactics-2 probably doesn't mean this but it might mean that they aren't really good at it.

Mechanically you could handle this by making a Tactics roll for the necromancer (probably + any Necromancer Talent or similar) with a SSR penalty based on the number of undead being commanded when giving orders with MoF equalling turns in which a zombie in a critical position takes Do Nothing instead of a useful manuever. If you were looking to nerf necromantic C3. Note this also encourages a chain of command and sapient small unit leaders in your Army of Darkness.

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Among other things you never tell the genie to make you a milkshake.
"...And then I asked for a giant orange head."
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Old 12-14-2017, 07:42 PM   #85
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Default Re: Gm limiting necromancy

It should be remembered that the "zombie" spell does not create modern apocalypse zombies. It creates undead servitors. They should be sufficient not only to fill out the ranks of a necromancer's zombies but also his skeletons. These servants have the ability to pour glasses of wine, restrain foes instead of killing them, and deliver messages.

What they don't have is the ability to make decisions for themselves, or get out of unforeseen situations. For example, if they're told not to chase intruders out of sight of their crypt, clever intruders might set up just outside the limit, and bait the minions again and again in order to destroy them
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Old 12-14-2017, 11:54 PM   #86
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Default Re: Gm limiting necromancy

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
Yes, we are talking about magical zombies raised by necromancers, not flesh-eating horde ghouls caused by curses or disease. I doubt the OP's goal is "be eaten by ghouls".
Yeah, to be honest people seemed to be talking about having difficulty with door knobs and the like, so I thought I'd check on the actually stats (since I wasn't that aware of them). I think a lot of this is going to come down to how you interpret and run a few mental traits and base IQ.


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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
Are zombies capable of defending themselves? Do they have self-preservation? Or do they always all-out attack when ordered to 'attack' and all-out defend when ordered to 'defend'?
I think IQ8 ones with pre-existing weapon skills will, certainly if they are told to fight effectively as part of an ongoing modus operandi*.

TBH with a IQ8 I think these zombies are actually not going to be as limited as some posts suggest.


*something I think reprogrammable etc helps with

Last edited by Tomsdad; 12-15-2017 at 12:11 AM.
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Old 12-15-2017, 12:42 AM   #87
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Default Re: Gm limiting necromancy

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TBH with a IQ8 I think these zombies are actually not going to be as limited as some posts suggest.
The Zombie spell in GURPS Magic leaves quite a lot up to the discretion of the GM. It notes that the Attributes, physical Advantages and DX-based skills are 'based' on those of the original body.

Sure, that's fine. Based on.

But for game balance reasons, there is absolutely no chance that anyone is getting a 500 point combat monster as a permanent servant for 8 FP just by a quick casting of Zombie on a royal guard, barbarian champion or master assassin.

I'm not saying that it should be impossible to make undead servants who still have and/or remember their 100+ points in physical Attributes, 50-100 points in physical Advantages and DX+4 to DX+6 skill with all weapons, not to mention a lot of other DX-based skills, like Acrobatics, Climbing, Jumping, Stealth, etc.

It should just cost more than 8 FP and maybe take more than 1 minute. When looking at game balance, we ought to compare the effectiveness to spells that summon elementals or demons. Those cost FP proportional with point value and certainly don't allow permanent ST 16; DX 14; IQ 8; HT 13 servitors with Weapon Master and skill 20 or so with several weapons just because you spent 8 FP on animating the DF-esque Knight from the rival adventuring party.

From a setting point of view, having a high skill level is a matter of the interplay of many things; memory, instinct, experience, muscle memory, reasoning and more. Even DX-based skills have a mental component, as evidenced by the fact that skills can float between Attributes.

All of which is to say that I think that the basic 8 FP investment in the Zombie spell ought to bring back no more than an animated corpse without any memories of their life and, thus, no skills.

More involved rituals, probably costing more FP proportionally with how much of the dead person comes back (+1 FP per 10 points or so), could then make skeletal archers, zombie swordmasters and other scary undead.
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Old 12-15-2017, 01:15 AM   #88
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Default Re: Gm limiting necromancy

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
The Zombie spell in GURPS Magic leaves quite a lot up to the discretion of the GM. It notes that the Attributes, physical Advantages and DX-based skills are 'based' on those of the original body.

Sure, that's fine. Based on.

But for game balance reasons, there is absolutely no chance that anyone is getting a 500 point combat monster as a permanent servant for 8 FP just by a quick casting of Zombie on a royal guard, barbarian champion or master assassin.

I'm not saying that it should be impossible to make undead servants who still have and/or remember their 100+ points in physical Attributes, 50-100 points in physical Advantages and DX+4 to DX+6 skill with all weapons, not to mention a lot of other DX-based skills, like Acrobatics, Climbing, Jumping, Stealth, etc.

It should just cost more than 8 FP and maybe take more than 1 minute. When looking at game balance, we ought to compare the effectiveness to spells that summon elementals or demons. Those cost FP proportional with point value and certainly don't allow permanent ST 16; DX 14; IQ 8; HT 13 servitors with Weapon Master and skill 20 or so with several weapons just because you spent 8 FP on animating the DF-esque Knight from the rival adventuring party.

From a setting point of view, having a high skill level is a matter of the interplay of many things; memory, instinct, experience, muscle memory, reasoning and more. Even DX-based skills have a mental component, as evidenced by the fact that skills can float between Attributes.

All of which is to say that I think that the basic 8 FP investment in the Zombie spell ought to bring back no more than an animated corpse without any memories of their life and, thus, no skills.

More involved rituals, probably costing more FP proportionally with how much of the dead person comes back (+1 FP per 10 points or so), could then make skeletal archers, zombie swordmasters and other scary undead.
I agree that I'd certainly take a view* on someone creating a zombie out of 500 point combat monster. But the listing in Zombies for this kind of zombie does explicitly state higher physical stats and weapon skills than listed are reasonable as creating these things out of soldiers is common.

On the hard and fast mental skill ban and high weapon skills include mental aspects argument. I'm not sure, since all skills can in theory be floated between all stats thats really an argument that in abstract can be used to allow or deny everything.

Also while I'd happily say a high combat skill isn't just muscle memory but involves some intelligence, these zombies are IQ8 that's not that dumb. It's well over learned tool use levels. In general mental ability terms the listing of them in zombies points out they can still talk!

TBH "no mental skills" is being used a lot here to deny ability to IQ8 (or IQ10 if you embalm them) zombies. Thing is a lot of out-of-game appeals to reality justifications regarding the mental/physical split are being used to do this, but "mental skills" in the context of the zombie write up is a game abstraction. Now I agree you are right this is a matter of personal interpretation, but to me it seems it's more "your no longer very good at chemistry" not "you can no longer do anything that previously required neurons and synapses to fire in your brain"



*probably some kind of skill limit, or a FP multiplier on CP totals over certain amount. (basically the kind of thing you mentioned)

Last edited by Tomsdad; 12-15-2017 at 02:33 AM.
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Old 12-15-2017, 01:30 AM   #89
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Default Re: Gm limiting necromancy

As flavour, I'd also rule that embalming and/or a similarly time-consuming skilled preparation was absolutely necessary if you had a fine, elegant body, with sinous elegance and perfect health, and you wanted to make use of these Attributes for your re-animated corpse.*

Basically, if you want a cheap corpse that rises in combat and attacks your foes, cast Zombie as written.

Hell, I'd allow a 10 sec. Casting Time version that gives a -2 DX and an extra -2 IQ (total -4 IQ) version with absolutely no skills.**

But if you want to re-animate an awesome physical specimen and/or a highly skilled character, you'd best be prepared to get busy with Professional Skill (Mortician) or some equivalent and then cast your Zombie spell as a ritual, with the FP cost scaling not only for template cost, but for the point value of the finished undead.

*I'd use this in preference to the rules for 'Prepared Corpses' rules on p. 134 in GURPS Zombies.
**This should cost just 4 FP according to the scaled Cost table on GURPS Zombies p. 133, but I'd consider dropping the Casting Time fair trade for effectively doubling the FP cost, up to the same as a regular casting.
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Old 12-15-2017, 02:31 AM   #90
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Default Re: Gm limiting necromancy

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As flavour, I'd also rule that embalming and/or a similarly time-consuming skilled preparation was absolutely necessary if you had a fine, elegant body, with sinous elegance and perfect health, and you wanted to make use of these Attributes for your re-animated corpse.*

Basically, if you want a cheap corpse that rises in combat and attacks your foes, cast Zombie as written.

Hell, I'd allow a 10 sec. Casting Time version that gives a -2 DX and an extra -2 IQ (total -4 IQ) version with absolutely no skills.**

But if you want to re-animate an awesome physical specimen and/or a highly skilled character, you'd best be prepared to get busy with Professional Skill (Mortician) or some equivalent and then cast your Zombie spell as a ritual, with the FP cost scaling not only for template cost, but for the point value of the finished undead.

*I'd use this in preference to the rules for 'Prepared Corpses' rules on p. 134 in GURPS Zombies.
**This should cost just 4 FP according to the scaled Cost table on GURPS Zombies p. 133, but I'd consider dropping the Casting Time fair trade for effectively doubling the FP cost, up to the same as a regular casting.
Yeah that sounds pretty inkeeping with the idea of proper rituals, and a lot of beliefs about the dead and death (being properly prepared for the afterlife as what you were before you died etc etc). And ultimately just basic truisms like "the more you put in, the more you get out of it" and the five p's
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