Diffuse + Vulnerability

[Plane]

B262 (Body of Air) and M28 (Small Air Elemental) both have the combination of the advantage Diffuse with the Vulnerable to Wind-based Attacks (x2)

B161 defines how Vulnerability works

the GM applies a special wounding multiplier to damage that penetrates your DR.
Regular wounding multipliers (for cutting, impaling, etc.) further multiply the damage.

then gives an example:

The GM multiplies this by 4 for Vulnerability,
giving 4 points of damage,
and then multiplies by 1.5 for a cutting attack

This sounds like you apply Vulnerability Wounding Multipliers first, and then Regular Wounding Multipliers second...

Does that mean you apply Vulnerability multiplier to basic damage and THEN apply the Diffuse damage caps to it?

B380 "Other attacks can never do more than 2 HP of injury."

This would seem to make Vulnerability "free points" in most cases (impaling/piercing can't be multiplied beyond 1, at best/worst you go from 1 to 2 for others) for Diffuse creatures except in the cases of exceptions to the caps (AE, cone, explosion).

If that is the case, then how would you enhance a Vulnerability so that it applies after the caps (ie changes max 2 damage to max 4 damage)?

[Refplace]

I apply the vulnerability in whatever manner results in the most damage as far as all the wounding modifiers go. So with Diffuse I apply vulnerability last.

[Anthony]

Based on the text of examples such as body of wind, vulnerability overrides diffuse and you take full damage.

[kirbwarrior]

As written, it does seem Diffuse applies last, but I'd have Vulnerability apply last personally.

Then again, Diffuse isn't full coverage. It doesn't apply to area-style attacks. For the Body of Air example, Wind-based attacks sounds implicitly area based (namely cones in my mind) so they wouldn't ever actually overlap.

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by Plane

B262 (Body of Air) and M28 (Small Air Elemental) both have the combination of the advantage Diffuse with the Vulnerable to Wind-based Attacks (x2)

B161 defines how Vulnerability works

the GM applies a special wounding multiplier to damage that penetrates your DR.
Regular wounding multipliers (for cutting, impaling, etc.) further multiply the damage.

then gives an example:

The GM multiplies this by 4 for Vulnerability,
giving 4 points of damage,
and then multiplies by 1.5 for a cutting attack

This sounds like you apply Vulnerability Wounding Multipliers first, and then Regular Wounding Multipliers second...

Does that mean you apply Vulnerability multiplier to basic damage and THEN apply the Diffuse damage caps to it?

B380 "Other attacks can never do more than 2 HP of injury."

This would seem to make Vulnerability "free points" in most cases (impaling/piercing can't be multiplied beyond 1, at best/worst you go from 1 to 2 for others) for Diffuse creatures except in the cases of exceptions to the caps (AE, cone, explosion).

If that is the case, then how would you enhance a Vulnerability so that it applies after the caps (ie changes max 2 damage to max 4 damage)?

Originally Posted by Anthony

Based on the text of examples such as body of wind, vulnerability overrides diffuse and you take full damage.

As Anthony said Vulnerability overrides Diffuse.

Vulnerability specifically says that you may not have a Defense vs. whatever it is you are Vulnerable to. It specifically calls out Resistant and Damage Resistance but from their descriptions, Injury Tolerance would also fall in the category of prohibited defenses.

By RAW, Damage affected by Diffuse is limited to a maximum of 1 HP for piercing impaling and 2 HP for everything else, but area-effect, cone and explosion attacks are not capped to those damages (and a wind- or vacuum-based attack would probably fall under one of those uncapped headings anyway).

Damage from Vulnerability, on the other hand, gets its wounding factor (x2 to x4) and then any regular wounding modifier that applies [from x1.5 to x2] and it is unlikely that there is a modifier that could apply against Vulnerability to reduce that damage. If you have an advantage that specifically applies against the regular wounding modifier that would still apply, but Cosmic on a defense vs. your Vulnerability would prohibit you from taking the Vulnerability rather than negating it.

[kirbwarrior]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

Vulnerability specifically says that you may not have a Defense vs. whatever it is you are Vulnerable to. It specifically calls out Resistant and Damage Resistance but from their descriptions, Injury Tolerance would also fall in the category of prohibited defenses.

Oh, that's right. Considering that, I'd likely put a limitation* on Diffuse that it doesn't protect against certain attacks then. I'd probably do the same with other defenses the player has like DR or a damage divisor.

*The ruling I've seen for "not against X" on DR is;
-15% for very common
-10% for common
-5% for uncommon
-1% or quirk for rare

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

As Anthony said Vulnerability overrides Diffuse.

Vulnerability specifically says that you may not have a Defense vs. whatever it is you are Vulnerable to. It specifically calls out Resistant and Damage Resistance but from their descriptions, Injury Tolerance would also fall in the category of prohibited defenses.

B161

Resistant, Damage Resistance limited to work only against that attack form, etc

the "etc" leaves room for other "specific defence" examples besides those.

P53's Injury Tolerance: Damage Reduction with the Limited modifier sounds like another case where it should apply.

"Limited to work only against that attack form" makes it sound like you can have broader DR that applies to that attack form and other attack forms though, which the intro seems to support too:

the GM applies a special wounding multiplier to damage that penetrates your DR

I think that would mean the rarity-rating of your DR would have to be at least one higher... so if you had a Rare vulnerability, you couldn't take DR (limited: rare) of that same type, but you could take DR (Limited: occasional) which includes it?

B46 examples could:
Vulnerable: Charged Particle Beams (rare) vs Damage Resistance: Particle Beams (occasional).
Vulnerable: Steel (occasional) vs Damage Resistance: Metal (Common)
Vulnerable: Fire/Heat (Common) vs Damage Resistance: Energy (Very Common)
Vulnerable: Crushing (Very Common) vs Damage Resistance (unmodified)

Since Diffuse protects against multiple things, it seems like it might not qualify as "specific" against any of the things it protects against, since broad-spectrum DR (since it isn't specific) seems to work.