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Old 03-09-2018, 12:13 PM   #11
RyanW
 
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Default Re: [Banestorm] Fleshing-out the Armsmen's Guild

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Originally Posted by phayman53 View Post
The reason I think there should be a disadvantage is because the Guild Rank does restrain your options to some degree--you will have consequences for violating the rules if you are caught. This seems like a disadvantage worth points to me, but I could be wrong about that.
Rules with consequences for violation is the standard assumption for anyone living in a civilized society. Most people could be convinced to violate them, but that doesn't mean they do or have, and most organizations would not expel you for something you might do.
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Old 03-09-2018, 12:41 PM   #12
phayman53
 
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Default Re: [Banestorm] Fleshing-out the Armsmen's Guild

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Rules with consequences for violation is the standard assumption for anyone living in a civilized society. Most people could be convinced to violate them, but that doesn't mean they do or have, and most organizations would not expel you for something you might do.
I wasn't trying to indicate being expelled for something you "might do". Like I said above, my initial assumption that you need a secret if you don't have the CoH and/or Vow was that you already had or the player was planning on violating the rules. I realize that this is not necessarily the case, so I have reconsidered that particular requirement for a mandatory Secret.

And like I also said, RAW in Social Engineering: Pulling Rank is that for Rank you almost always need some kind of accompanying disadvantage that indicates you either will not violate the organization's rules or you that there are consequences for violating them. This is usually duty with a frequency roll, but can be other disadvantages that are usually classed as "self-imposed mental disadvantages". Remember, this is not the same as a job that does not show-up on the character sheet because it is just the background source of income. It is Rank that confers in-game advantages and abilities. Therefore, losing it is a significant change and so the organization's rules are constraining even if you plan on violating them.
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Old 05-10-2018, 04:39 PM   #13
Kax
 
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Default Re: [Banestorm] Fleshing-out the Armsmen's Guild

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Originally Posted by phayman53 View Post
I wasn't trying to indicate being expelled for something you "might do". Like I said above, my initial assumption that you need a secret if you don't have the CoH and/or Vow was that you already had or the player was planning on violating the rules. I realize that this is not necessarily the case, so I have reconsidered that particular requirement for a mandatory Secret.

And like I also said, RAW in Social Engineering: Pulling Rank is that for Rank you almost always need some kind of accompanying disadvantage that indicates you either will not violate the organization's rules or you that there are consequences for violating them. This is usually duty with a frequency roll, but can be other disadvantages that are usually classed as "self-imposed mental disadvantages". Remember, this is not the same as a job that does not show-up on the character sheet because it is just the background source of income. It is Rank that confers in-game advantages and abilities. Therefore, losing it is a significant change and so the organization's rules are constraining even if you plan on violating them.

As the description of Rank includes Duty, and this function is exactly what Duty is for and Duty is externally imposed, use Duty not Vow. A Vow is for an internalized Duty, one taken more seriously than just a Duty covering how you act in a job.

Someone dedicated to the tenets of the Guild would have CoH or Vow.

A Vow as a job requirement is for priests and nobles and police and knights and others signing up for life.
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Old 05-10-2018, 07:00 PM   #14
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Default Re: [Banestorm] Fleshing-out the Armsmen's Guild

A Vow or Code of Honor is, I think, inappropriate. Code of Honor (Lawyer) exists, but obviously not every lawyer has it. (But technically they do have a Duty in the U.S.) So is Sense of Duty- that's an internal thing.

I'd say that by far Duty seems like the best fit, and the description of Duty says that it is often linked to Rank, Patron, or some other privilege. And one thing that makes something a Patron is if it provides jobs, which the guild does.

The problem is that the kind of duty that Duty means really doesn't apply unless the armsman has taken a job. Can some sort of limitation be placed on it? It's probably Hazardous already (not the Extremely Hazardous that applies to special operators). Guilds are supposed to protect the interests of it's member, but is probably nonetheless limited by Minimal Intervention in this case. The Guild might very well guarantee bonds for especially large contracts, and I would imagine it might pay members' ransoms if they behaved honorably on a bonded contract but were captured. (Of course, it might then expect you to take on a "special" contract for it afterwards...)

Or, maybe make the Duty to the Armsmans Guild itself, rather than to the client per se. After all, a Duty involves some sort of sociolegal requirement to act or one faces penalties, and presumably the Armsmans Guild is able to enact punishment or other penalties if it's rules are broken, and it is rather ubiquitous in the setting. Or maybe one aspect of the Duty is that it transfers to the client when a job is taken. Certainly a Guild member who unjustifiably betrayed his employer would suffer sanction from the guild?

Last edited by acrosome; 05-10-2018 at 07:12 PM.
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Old 05-10-2018, 07:08 PM   #15
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Default Re: [Banestorm] Fleshing-out the Armsmen's Guild

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Originally Posted by Kax View Post
As the description of Rank includes Duty, and this function is exactly what Duty is for and Duty is externally imposed, use Duty not Vow. A Vow is for an internalized Duty, one taken more seriously than just a Duty covering how you act in a job.

Someone dedicated to the tenets of the Guild would have CoH or Vow.

A Vow as a job requirement is for priests and nobles and police and knights and others signing up for life.
Except that, as I recall, Banestorm says that members of the Armsmen's Guild can't order each other around. It does not have a command structure with that kind of hirearchical authority. This indicates Duty is not the best disadvantage to model how one stays in the guild. Social Engineering: Pulling Rank expands the possible Disadvantage prerequisites for Rank to include alternatives to Duty. The relevant passage is on pg. 8:

Quote:
Other Disadvantages: Because this is largely a matter of honor, the GM may opt to replace Duty with Code of Honor, Disciplines of Faith, Sense of Duty, or Vow. In that case, being caught violating this oath has the same effect as failing to uphold a Duty.
I think Vow fits best because it represents a public promise that someone may or may not be internally compelled to keep (unlike a Code of Honor or Sense of Duty). But, if you break it, in this case you can lose guild rank or be kicked out.
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Old 05-10-2018, 08:01 PM   #16
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Default Re: [Banestorm] Fleshing-out the Armsmen's Guild

How does the Armsmen's Guild stat out using Boardroom & Curia?
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