Rebuilding Affliction

[Kelly Pedersen]

Over in this thread, Anthony proposed an interesting idea for changing Affliction - make the base cost variable, depending on what the exact effect it created was. I think this is worth exploring, and rather than continuing to hijack Refplace's thread, I'd like to talk about it here instead.

So, what should various effects cost as Afflictions? For starters, I think advantages and attributes need to cost at least as much as their base traits, if not more - they need to cost at least that much by default, or people will get broken builds by building one person with Affliction (all the useful advantages) and just Afflicting their allies and themselves constantly. Personally, I like the numbers I suggested in the other thread, that advantages and attributes cost their base value as Afflictions, while disadvantages cost half their base value as disadvantages.

Second, how do you convert the non-trait modifiers from Afflictions (the irritating and incapacitating conditions, mostly)? The simplest way, it seems to me, is to add 100 to the enhancement value of each, divide by 10, and that's your point cost. So Sleep, for instance, would be 25 points (150% enhancement, +100 is 250, divide by 10 is 25), while Coma would be 35. This has the advantage of making most of the conditions work out to the same base cost as just using the enhancement on RAW Affliction. The only exception is Stunning, which works out to 11 points instead of the base 10. I'd probably just handwave it and say that Stunning was still 10 points. (I'd also take the opportunity to make Stunning last for minutes by default, rather than seconds. I don't see why it should have such a radically different duration than the others - it's certainly no worse to be stunned in combat than asleep!)

Most modifiers that weren't directly adding an effect to Affliction could remain the same. The one exception would be an enhancement to modify the resistance roll (rather than the current system, of requiring additional levels). I'd price such an enhancement at +10% per -1 to resist. For an affliction that's only 10 points base cost (shrinking someone two SMs, for example), I think 1 point per -1 to resist sounds pretty fair, while more powerful afflictions would, of course, cost more to make resistible.

[Anthony]

I would be tempted to remove both Advantage and Disadvantage from Affliction, as their point value is often very poorly correlated with how useful they are as attacks.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by Anthony

I would be tempted to remove both Advantage and Disadvantage from Affliction, as their point value is often very poorly correlated with how useful they are as attacks.

Then how do you suggest building buffs? Sorcery uses Afflictions for most of that.

[Humabout]

Asvantage and Disadvantage are what they are. We dont really have anything better, so Im good with keeping them.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Refplace

Then how do you suggest building buffs? Sorcery uses Afflictions for most of that.

I would use the Affects Others enhancement.

Originally Posted by Humabout

Asvantage and Disadvantage are what they are. We dont really have anything better, so Im good with keeping them.

The problem is that GURPS doesn't really separate "how often is this relevant" from "how crippling is it when it is relevant", and the frequency of appearance when used as an attack is likely very different from what occurs normally on a character. For example, try afflicting Doesn't Breath (Gills; can only survive underwater, suffocates in air) on someone. That's a 0 point feature, but on an affliction is fatal.

[Humabout]

This may be true, but getting hung up on tackling this prevents much movement on the bits that do work. I'd suggest we try to make progress on what does work reliably and revisit Advantages/Disadvantages afterword. Sometimes in working out the framework for the rest of the trait, you find answers to the bits that look nightmarish from the start.

[munin]

Originally Posted by Anthony

I would use the Affects Others enhancement. …

That's just using their point value again. It's basically saying you think the Advantage enhancement should be half the cost it is now?

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by munin

That's just using their point value again. It's basically saying you think the Advantage enhancement should be half the cost it is now?

I dont understand your pricing.
Affects Others is a +50% enhancement, so if you use that method it costs 50% more of the advantage cost to be able to loan it to someone your touching. More if you add Ranged or a version of Persistent so it lasts a bit.
Affliction costs the same as the underlying advantage and is already at range, though DR can be an issue.

[Kelly Pedersen]

Originally Posted by munin

That's just using their point value again. It's basically saying you think the Advantage enhancement should be half the cost it is now?

I believe Anthony's point is that the value of Advantages as buffs (that is, just giving them to yourself or allies to use just as if they had the advantage on their character sheet) isn't necessarily related to their value when used as attacks - is it really worth only 30 points to shrink someone down 6 SMs, reducing their damage, HP, and DR to 1/10th normal, for example? Or, in the example he already gave, what about Doesn't Breath (Gills, can't breath air)? That's a 0-point feature, so by my math above, it would be a 0-point base cost for Affliction. But use it on somebody where there's no water, and suddenly you've got a pretty good power for killing them quickly.

Still, I do have an issue with the idea of removing advantages and disadvantages from Affliction entirely. First, building buffs is still very useful. You wouldn't need just Affects Others enhancing the basic advantage, you'd need a whole complex of modifiers to represent doing it at a distance, to a specific target, and then that effect lasting for a duration rather than just "however long they stay in contact with me". That's all a hassle, and I think it's just as reasonable to just keep using Affliction to handle that, which has all those built in.

I do think that the point about not all advantages or disadvantages being worth their base cost is good, though. I think most of the issues there come from the lower-priced ones, so I think I'd go with there being a base cost for Affliction. Probably make it 10 points. So it still costs 10 points to afflict someone with No Legs (Aquatic), for instance.

Cases like Doesn't Breathe (Gills, suffocates in air) are a bit different - obviously, 10 points is still far too cheap for the ability to inflict gasping death in most locations. I think I'd rule that Afflictions that inflict transformations can't inflict deadly transformations - you have to either use it in a place the person could get to water before suffocating, or it doesn't work, basically. Getting around this would require a hefty enhancement. Probably +300%. That would make the Affliction: Doesn't Breathe (Gills, suffocates in air) trick cost 40 points if you could use it on someone with no water around. That sounds better, since it's comparable to the current price of Affliction (Heart Attack).

[Brandy]

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

Most modifiers that weren't directly adding an effect to Affliction could remain the same. The one exception would be an enhancement to modify the resistance roll (rather than the current system, of requiring additional levels). I'd price such an enhancement at +10% per -1 to resist. For an affliction that's only 10 points base cost (shrinking someone two SMs, for example), I think 1 point per -1 to resist sounds pretty fair, while more powerful afflictions would, of course, cost more to make resistible.

I'm not looking at the books, but wouldn't the cost of -1 to resist have to be priced with consideration of the cost for adding an effect as a secondary effect? I'm trying to remember -- is a secondary effect only triggered if resistance is failed by -5? Do I remember that right?

If so, secondary effects could be added for half their base cost if each -1 to resist was a +20% enhancement instead of +10%. I think that value might be better anyway. Thoughts?