Mage the Ascension 20th anniversary in GURPS

[KarlKost]

So, Onyx Path has made the special editions of the 20th years of all the games of the old (or classic) World of Darkness (the three main - werewolf, Vampire and Mage - are done, wraith and Changelling are still being backed, or so they say). Well, I have the new edition, is a great improvement over all previous editions but...

But it isn't GURPS.

So, I'm trying to fix that for my games

Yes yes, I know, Realm Magic, sure, the only problem is to assemble all the general rules under Thaumatology to fine tune it in a easy and acessible tome.

Also, I have a few adjustment I would like to do to the rules (so, the final result will be close to the core of Mage Ascension, but with a few catches that will be a little more Gurpish). I'll also take a few ideas from Ritual Path Magic.

Here's what I got so far

So, first of all, Im planning some rewriting of the Spheres. First, I'll make them lvl 1 to 6 - lvl 6 will be for archmages, and Im thinking that Archmastery should require an unusual background -> but how much should I charge? 100 pts to enable all Archmastery? 25 pts per Sphere? 10 pts per Sphere? (Suggestions please, but hold your toughts for a while, see above before asnwering)

About the proper rewriting: first, I prefer to make the Spheres' levels following the guidelines under Thaumatology: level 1 is sensorial (so, the classic see past/future of Time 2 or see distant places of Correspondence 2, would both become level 1, and Mind 1 would no longer be the insanely overpowered level as is originaly in the WW version). I guess that will fix many balance issues - Forces 2 is too strong as it is, as is Mind 1, and Time 1 is almost useless.

Secondly, all the schemy of 9 spheres... Will be no more. Firstly, I'll introduce a new "Realm" (Sphere), with a few similarities with Daarth from Ritual Path Magic (Or Void Sphere), but it will also have something to do with Paradox, but also Paradigm. The Technocracy will call that Sphere as Consensus, the Sons of Ether and Virtual Adepts perhaps will call it Paradigm, the Hermetics may call it Paradox Sphere and so on. I'll post the effective levels of that one soon enough.

Also... What do you guys think about splitting Entropy into Fate/Destiny and Chaos/Decay/Death?

But the most important, I'll join an idea from Dark Ages Mage (a supplement for Mage for a period before the Sorcerers Cruzade and the birth of the Order of Reason).

Its a good idea that they had, with each group's Paradigm giving access to different, custom spheres. Of course, since it is White Wolf we are talking about, it was poorly implemented and described.

Luckly, we have GURPS and Thaumatology.

So, I was planning to have the Order of Hermes with the classical 9 spheres (maybe with the a 10th Sphere from the split of Entropy into Fate and Decay, and even an 11th Sphere of Paradox), but most other groups would have different Realm structures (so, remember when I asked how much for UB to be an archmage? So, take this into account, that the number of spheres wont be always 9)

As of now, I would have the Cult of Ecstasy (that believes everything to be just a matter of perception) with only 3 Spheres:

BODY - It encompass all the material phenomena, ie, everything that is clearly perceived by our senses (in the Hermetics lore, it would be the Spheres of Matter, Life and Forces)

MIND - It encompass the scenario upon which the phenomena of the Body takes place, its the illusionary stage upon which our perceptions place all the objects of the body; this Sphere is a direct result of our perceptions (meaning: it speaks about Time, Space and Fate, or, as the game calls, Time, Correspondence and Entropy)

SPIRIT - like the word says, its the "life force" of all reality, that which our mundane senses can't see, but the enlightened few can learn to master with proper training (this would encompass the traditional spheres of Mind, Spirit and Prime, it would also take what is Decay and the new Sphere Im making, Consensus/Paradox/Paradigm.


Besides them, the Technocracy will also have different Spheres... I'm still thinking about using Data instead of Correspondence and Primal Utility instead of Prime for them (thats a new thing for some convention books at the end of Revised era, and placed as optional for Mage 20th, so, even the game's makers give the suggestion of Spheres based on Paradigm, rather than an universal system). A few changes I've been thinking:

Space-Time - Einstein has already convinced the Union that differences between Space and Time is just superstitious talk. So, the Technocratic elit knows how to bend Space-Time under their relativistic theories that are far better than the pitiful math from the Traditions that still rely on Issac Newton

Biochemestry - Life patterns are just the result of Chemical interactions. There is no real difference between life and matter, except perhaps as a matter of their entropic state. Like said Doctor Manhattan in Watchmen, there is no structural difference between a living and a dead body; both have the same amount of atoms.

And, I dont have plans on splitting Entropy between Fate and Decay for the Technocracy (but, perhaps, I may reduce some of its "Fate" functions - Fate, after all, is dark age superstitons. I would like a helping hand here)

The others, probably just the same.

[KarlKost]

Oh yes, I forgot, the Technocracy doesn't believe in "spirits" AT ALL (and neither does the Virtual Adepts), so they use "Dimensional Science", and don't have Spirit Sphere... Basically, they believe that what the superstitionists from the Traditions call "Umbra" or "Spirit World", actually are other dimensions, and "spirits", actually are "Ultraterrestrials" (alien beings from other dimensions).

So, here we go, thats also another different Sphere. So, the Technocracy, actually, only share 6 Spheres with the Hermetics, with 3 being different (Data instead of Correspondence, Primal Utility instead of Prime, Dimensional Science instead of Spirit)

I still haven't worked out all new Spheres for all groups - for example, Virtual Adepts also dont believe in "spirits", and probably have a pretty close system to that of the Union, the " Society" of Ether probably could use some remake on Prime, anda maybe a few other changes - adopting Decay and Paradigm? Maybe fusion of Prime and Spirit? Christianism doesn't recognize any kind of spirits but Demons and Angels... So, maybe the Celestial Chorus is restricted to those kinds? (And, maybe their Spirit Sphere is more restricted in that sense, but they have the functions of Decay mixed with it - but, their costs include this restriction as a "Realm" of which they dont have access).

I also wanna make Mage REALLY subjective.

For example:

Technocrats (and other technomancers and even some mystics) dont believe in avatars.

But we, as players, now that THEY EXIST, because they are built into the mechanics.

My solution (I have other ideas, I'll try to cover them all): make the strenght of a Mage's Avatar, as a mesure of his Arete (Arete = just another name for Magery). How? Easy: use the rules for RAW Magic on Thaumatology, and the optional advantage to store Raw Magic 5 pts/lvl.

So, Magery (Arete) will cost an extra 5 pts per level, and will give you an maximum amount of quintessence that equals your Arete.

Now, the power of your "soul" will equate your enlightment... Which makes sense. And now, the concept of Avatar no longer have game mechanics that screams "this is the ultimate truth!", but is only a philosophical concept that may or may not be true, your GM's choice! (I'll add more ideas that will reinforce this)

[Anaraxes]

Do you have a copy of the 3e GURPS MtA book? (Out of print, no PDF, but under $5 used on Amazon.)

I've always thought the 4e Realm Magic in Thaumatology was a generalization of the system they invented for this book, so that's no doubt the place to start.

[KarlKost]

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

Do you have a copy of the 3e GURPS MtA book? (Out of print, no PDF, but under $5 used on Amazon.)

I've always thought the 4e Realm Magic in Thaumatology was a generalization of the system they invented for this book, so that's no doubt the place to start.

I do have a vey old one.

In my opinion, the Magic system for Mage, along with its scenario (having room for ANY real life OR fiction idea of mysticism we have, and not only that, but also the possibility to place superscience toghether in the mix) its the most brilliant idea I have ever seem.

And GURPS Mage 3ed just gave that raw, brute idea, the balanced, well thought system, to make it a coherent system.

After that, Thaumatology expanded all the previous horizons and gave an even better balance by giving Realm Magic access to the 4th edition of GURPS, which, in my opinion, is the closest to perfection system.

That being said, GURPS Mage 3ed is VERY good... However, I think it deserves a well needed update - the "GURPS" part would greatly improve with a revision to the 4ed (specially using Thaumatology), and the "Mage" side would be good with an update to the M20 edition (the GURPS Mage were 3ed and Mage based on 2ed, so they are both out of date, specially Mage, because there has been many - mostly positive - changes since 2ed)

Also, as I described above, I think the fixed, immutable system of 9 Spheres should be changed to encompass a broader holistic view of all the several (and conflicting) metaphysical concepts, not just the Hermetic view - how can you make a Mage that believes that Space and Time are the same thing, or that Matter and Life have no difference, if the Spheres doesn't allow that? Another example: in the M20 edition, when discussing about the nature of spirts, it says, for example, that the Order of Hermes, Sons of Ether and some others, believe that spirits are part of a mental stage... So, there is no "spiritual world", but rather, its a kind of "collective inconcious", some kind of shared collective mental stance that in theory exists in the deepest reaches of all subconscious minds. Ok, thats fine... But how on Earth will you do this if the system gives you Mind AND Spirit?

The game mechanics give away that "sorry, Einstein is just a pawn of the Technocracy, Space and Time are distinct, and nope, the spirit world isnt just imagination, its REAL.".

By those mechanics of the Spheres, if your Mage believes that "everything is Maya (illusions)" and so, spirits are just jungian archetypes from the Mind, that mage is a deluded idiot, because CLEARLY spirits are beings made of ephemera... The Spirit Sphere proves that.

But, if you use only what you call Mind to access those landscapes... Who could say you're wrong?

So, in my opinion, that is a much needed change.... And luckly, thaumatology allows me to do EXACTLY that

[robkelk]

I would be extremely surprised if any of the GURPS WoD books were ever updated. (Not my story to tell, but Robert M. Schroeck has told me why.)

Best to keep working on your own unofficial update.

[KarlKost]

Originally Posted by robkelk

I would be extremely surprised if any of the GURPS WoD books were ever updated. (Not my story to tell, but Robert M. Schroeck has told me why.)

Best to keep working on your own unofficial update.

Yes yes, I dont really expect new books, I just wanna ideas to work on what's already here, and to improve on that. Im a little short on time, so, as soon as I can, I'll put at the table a few of the questions I have about the fine tuning of Thaumatology's rules, but meanwhile, any idea on better Spheres (Realms) systems for the other groups besides the ones I already mentioned (and additional ideas on top of the ones I already cited) are welcome

[Phil Masters]

Mage spheres are mostly, broadly speaking, "nouns". Things. Aspects of reality. Your level in the sphere determines what you can do with them - the available "verbs" - sense, modify, create...

This, to me, meant that Entropy always felt out of place. It's much more of a "verb" - it's basically "destroy". Also, the Time sphere felt like a kludge; it ends up covering two complete different aspects of reality; prophecy, the stuff that traditional witches and wizards and priests do with tea leaves or Tarot or entrails, and technocrats do with advanced mathematical or memetic modelling, and motion, including super-fast movement. A Time mage starts out getting glimpses of the future, detours into cinematic Bruce Lee territory, then comes back to shaping the future. Except that (a) time travel is canonically impossible, which makes game sense but takes half the fun out if having a Time sphere at the top level, and (b) looking into the future and people's destinies and all that cool mystic sh*t seems to fall under Entropy half the time.

So, were I to run Mage again, I think that I'd scrap those two spheres and instantiate Destiny and Motion instead. Destiny would be the classic Tarot'n'tea-leaves thing, ascending to playing with emerging reality at high levels, and would interact with the character advantage of the same name, while Motion would be the sphere that lets Akashics leap tall buildings while throwing sixteen kick attacks a turn, Merlin move whole armies round the country in an hour, witches fly on broomsticks, and so on.

This also means a re-jig for the Tradition sphere associations. Akashics would get Motion (they have kung fu), Euthanatos would get Destiny (duh), and the Cult of Ecstasy would get Mind (messing with people's heads being their big thing).

[RogerBW]

Originally Posted by Phil Masters

So, were I to run Mage again, I think that I'd scrap those two spheres and instantiate Destiny and Motion instead.

Writing as someone hopelessly mired in rational physics, I can't help feel that Motion and Forces overlap really rather a lot.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by RogerBW

Writing as someone hopelessly mired in rational physics

I think this part is what tends to cause the most complications in any sphere rewrites and designs. I'm currently trying to adopt a more loose, relaxed and open-minded attitude towards the spheres (I'm currently playing in an MtA campaign), and I think it made the gaming experience a little better, but I have a long way left to go.

[Bruno]

I really rather like the rejiggering of the Spheres based on philosophy. It's something that lept out at me when reading Thaumatology.
You'll have to do a little more thinking when two mages interact, but I really like it.

I really like the implications for Marauders. An ideosyncratic set of Spheres for each one, producing very unpredictable effects.