[Basic] Advantage of the Week (#27): Common Sense, Intuition - Page 4

~~NineDaysDead~~ · 01-12-2017, 05:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

But that's an unusual usage, not the standard one. Most of the time as a players I didn't even need it (a few situations I didn't know about it and might've benefitted from it, but that's a minority).

It's certainly a new rule. But the usage is not unusual; being in a situation where you want to know the best course of action, but have too little information to define the alternatives is very common.

Ulzgoroth · 01-12-2017, 07:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

It's certainly a new rule. But the usage is not unusual; being in a situation where you want to know the best course of action, but have too little information to define the alternatives is very common.

The need isn't unusual. The ability to use Intuition in that situation might be.

vicky_molokh · 01-12-2017, 07:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

The need isn't unusual. The ability to use Intuition in that situation might be.

Indeed. To me it sounds like an ability very, very reminiscent of Conscious Common Sense. Almost like defaulting it to Intuition but getting something only slightly different!

~~NineDaysDead~~ · 01-12-2017, 07:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

The ability to use Intuition in that situation might be.

I can't see any reason why intuitive insights should only be available when you can clearly enumerate all the options.

~~NineDaysDead~~ · 01-12-2017, 07:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Indeed. To me it sounds like an ability very, very reminiscent of Conscious Common Sense. Almost like defaulting it to Intuition but getting something only slightly different!

I'd say they're about as close as Mind Reading and Mind Probe.

vicky_molokh · 01-12-2017, 07:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

I can't see any reason why intuitive insights should only be available when you can clearly enumerated all the options.

One of those cases where the name might've been chosen better for the ability than it currently, as in the case of Selfish and Honesty and Enhanced Time Sense and Aquatic. But for an ability that is originally defined as "choose among X choices", the ability to know non-enumerated choices looks unusual.

~~evileeyore~~ · 01-12-2017, 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

It isn't part of the Inspired enhancement listed in Powers, and the version in Weird doesn't have any other modifiers on it.

Yes it does (technically):

Quote:

Gnosis 30 points

Statistics: Intuition (Inspired (Cosmic), +100%) [30].

As noted in the Enhancements paragraph on page 19 of Powers: The Weird:

Quote:

Some special enhancements have costs and effects similar to Cosmic enhancements, and may count toward a Cosmic power modifier in the same way, at the GM’s discretion: Inspired (Intuition, GURPS Powers, p. 56);

This is important because if using the suggestions from P:tW, Cosmic grants the "Power Modifier" as the first 50% of the Cosmic Enhancement "cost". So a lot of enhancements can become Power Modifiers with no extra cost.

Also, note that you're arguing with the author of a book about rules in a book he wrote. Eh?

I'm not saying whswhs (William H Stoddard) is infallible... but in this case he's technically correct.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

I've quote a rule in this thread that says otherwise.

That rule you quoted is not a part of baseline Intuition, it's part of Gnosis.

Some times when enhancing advantages (and upgrading them into their own newly named Abilities) Authors add to them in ways the Enhancements might not themselves offer, but make sense in package.

~~NineDaysDead~~ · 01-12-2017, 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by evileeyore

Yes it is:

No, it doesn't. It has only one modifier; the Inspired enhancement. The fact that Inspired now includes a Power Modifier doesn't change what Inspired does, or that it's one enhancement.

Quote:

Originally Posted by evileeyore

This is important because if using the suggestions from P:tW, Cosmic grants the "Power Modifier" as the first 50% of the Cosmic Enhancement "cost". So a lot of enhancements can become Power Modifiers with no extra cost.

And? In what way is this relevant? How does that suddenly grant an Enhancement extra new abilities at no extra cost?

Quote:

Originally Posted by evileeyore

Also, note that you're arguing with the author of a book about rules in a book he wrote. Eh?

Yes. There are a number of rules issues with P:tW.

Quote:

Originally Posted by evileeyore

Some times when enhancing advantages (and upgrading them into their own newly named Abilities) Authors add to them in ways the Enhancements might not themselves offer, but make sense in package.

In GURPS you get what you pay for, not what "makes sense".

whswhs · 01-12-2017, 09:14 AM

As far as Common Sense goes:

There are tasks you might need to perform that call for some skill. For example, you might use Survival to identify which mushrooms are edible, or Savoir-Faire to negotiate some issue of court protocol. If you don't have the skill, your chances are poor: Per-5 or IQ-4, in these cases. If you critically fail, something harmful or seriously costly happens.

There are tasks where IQ would be sufficient, but if you have a certain skill, you could use that instead, if it's higher. These are easier and less dependent on specialized knowledge. For example, you might use IQ or Savoir-Faire to figure out which fork to use.

There are tasks that default to the skill at a bonus equal to the usual default penalty—so you can roll vs. the unmodified stat, OR you can roll vs., say, Survival+5 or Savoir-Faire+4. So maybe you're trying to gather firewood, and Per will let you spot dry wood, but Survival+5 will boost your odds because you know where to look. And maybe a critical failure gets you green wood, or wood that gives off mildly toxic smoke and contaminates your food.

Even easier than those are tasks that don't normally call for a skill roll AT ALL. Any normal person can just say, "Okay, I say 'Good morning. Can I help you?'" or "I get out my matches and light the fire." You can talk about GMs calling for rolls to do them, but (a) they would need bigger bonuses still, because IQ alone should be enough to succeed on 16 or less, let's say, and trained skill would get you even higher, and (b) really, asking for a roll in that case is a bit of an exercise in sadism, unless you're trying to do slapstick comedy. And if you fail at that roll, you feel incredibly inept; if you critically fail, you have an embarrassing accident that actually hurts you in some minor way.

But because players are perverse, you can have a player character who intentionally does something that is as bad a mistake as a critical failure on one of those last rolls, and that is going to have destructive consequences. And you might want to say, "So you want to pour lighter fluid onto your campfire so it will burn hotter?" or, "So you spit on the Duchess?" The consequences may well be bad enough so that you wouldn't go that far even after a standard critical failure; they're outside the realm of ordinary random bad luck and into that of "what could they have been thinking?"

And those last actions are what Common Sense is meant to prevent. Where a normal player wouldn't do that, and a perverse or stupid player would do it, such a player with Common Sense would be told, "Roll your IQ," and if they succeeded, the GM would say, "That's the kind of thing that will give you large area burns/land you in the ducal dungeons."

This might be adapted to making up for the game world not being like the mundane world. But really I think mistakes of that sort are better dealt with by the GM just telling the player that it's a bad idea because X. I think Common Sense is better used for players who habitually do dumb ****. You know, like throwing a grenade into the starport office because their permission to take off is being held up.

Now, I put this in terms of asking the player to roll IQ, because I have players make their own rolls. If your style is to roll things for players, you might want to roll this. It's still a roll vs. IQ, whether the player or the GM makes it.

But because players don't normally fail at tasks as simply as politely greeting the Duchess, or make mistakes as bad as having their character spit on her, and because a GM wouldn't normally have anything so awful happen, or make the player roll anything to avoid it, there is no roll to modify by IQ bonuses. Common Sense gives you an IQ roll, if the GM decides you need it. So the bonus only applies if you already have Common Sense.

~~evileeyore~~ · 01-12-2017, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

In GURPS you get what you pay for, not what "makes sense".

False. You get what the creator of the ability thinks it needs and pay what they think it's worth.

If you think otherwise, explain the pricing of Combat Reflexes in relation to Enhanced Defenses.

01-12-2017, 09:14 AM	#39
whswhs Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Lawrence, KS	Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#27): Common Sense, Intuition As far as Common Sense goes: There are tasks you might need to perform that call for some skill. For example, you might use Survival to identify which mushrooms are edible, or Savoir-Faire to negotiate some issue of court protocol. If you don't have the skill, your chances are poor: Per-5 or IQ-4, in these cases. If you critically fail, something harmful or seriously costly happens. There are tasks where IQ would be sufficient, but if you have a certain skill, you could use that instead, if it's higher. These are easier and less dependent on specialized knowledge. For example, you might use IQ or Savoir-Faire to figure out which fork to use. There are tasks that default to the skill at a bonus equal to the usual default penalty—so you can roll vs. the unmodified stat, OR you can roll vs., say, Survival+5 or Savoir-Faire+4. So maybe you're trying to gather firewood, and Per will let you spot dry wood, but Survival+5 will boost your odds because you know where to look. And maybe a critical failure gets you green wood, or wood that gives off mildly toxic smoke and contaminates your food. Even easier than those are tasks that don't normally call for a skill roll AT ALL. Any normal person can just say, "Okay, I say 'Good morning. Can I help you?'" or "I get out my matches and light the fire." You can talk about GMs calling for rolls to do them, but (a) they would need bigger bonuses still, because IQ alone should be enough to succeed on 16 or less, let's say, and trained skill would get you even higher, and (b) really, asking for a roll in that case is a bit of an exercise in sadism, unless you're trying to do slapstick comedy. And if you fail at that roll, you feel incredibly inept; if you critically fail, you have an embarrassing accident that actually hurts you in some minor way. But because players are perverse, you can have a player character who intentionally does something that is as bad a mistake as a critical failure on one of those last rolls, and that is going to have destructive consequences. And you might want to say, "So you want to pour lighter fluid onto your campfire so it will burn hotter?" or, "So you spit on the Duchess?" The consequences may well be bad enough so that you wouldn't go that far even after a standard critical failure; they're outside the realm of ordinary random bad luck and into that of "what could they have been thinking?" And those last actions are what Common Sense is meant to prevent. Where a normal player wouldn't do that, and a perverse or stupid player would do it, such a player with Common Sense would be told, "Roll your IQ," and if they succeeded, the GM would say, "That's the kind of thing that will give you large area burns/land you in the ducal dungeons." This might be adapted to making up for the game world not being like the mundane world. But really I think mistakes of that sort are better dealt with by the GM just telling the player that it's a bad idea because X. I think Common Sense is better used for players who habitually do dumb ***. You know, like throwing a grenade into the starport office because their permission to take off is being held up. Now, I put this in terms of asking the player to roll IQ, because I have players make their own rolls. If your style is to roll things for players, you might want to roll this. It's still a roll vs. IQ, whether the player or the GM makes it. But because players don't normally fail at tasks as simply as politely greeting the Duchess, or make mistakes as bad as having their character spit on her, and because a GM wouldn't normally have anything so awful happen, or make the player roll anything to avoid it, there is no roll to modify by IQ bonuses. Common Sense gives you* an IQ roll, if the GM decides you need it. So the bonus only applies if you already have Common Sense. __________________ Bill Stoddard I don't think we're in Oz any more.