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Old 08-26-2016, 02:28 AM   #1
Erling
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Default Rapid Fire bonus and Rcl

AFAIK, in reality main purpose of automatic/burst fire is not hitting the target multiple times, but rather aid for hitting it at least once. In GURPS this concept is reflected by Rapid Fire mechanics, where to-hit bonus is determined by the number of shots fired. However, GURPS approach towards automatic and burst fire assumes that overall Rapid Fire bonus isn't affected by weapon's controllability and mass. Instead, these variable affect chance to hit multiple times, which is expressed by Rcl stat.

Historically full-power rifle cartridges, like 7.62x51, where replaced by intermediate cartridges, like 5.56x45, due to many factors. Among them was the controllability issue, as soldiers couldn't enjoy full benefits of rapid fire using full-power cartidges - shots scattered and spreaded, making it harder to hit the target with burst of full-auto.

Just to name a GURPS example, let's take M16 and FN FAL. Let's assume both models have RoF 9, which converts to +2 Rapid Fire bonus. M16 has Rcl 2, while FN FAL has Rcl 3. That is, rapid fire will provide equal bonus with both rifles. Only chance to hit multiple times is affected by Rcl.

What I suggest as a house rule is modifying Rapid Fire bonus appropriate to Rcl stat. It can be done in several ways:

1. Rcl 2: +1 for 3-4 shots, +2 for 5-8, +3 for 9-12, +4 for 13-16...
Rcl 3: unchanged Basic Set rules.
Rcl 4: 0 for 2-8 shots, +1 for 9-12, +2 for 13-16...

This approach would also encourage using standard pistol cartridges known for their controllability, like 9x19. Currently they are significantly inferior to cartridges like .40 S&W, especially when using AP ammo. Furthermore, this approach would reinforce Shoot Till Down concept (TS16) while shooting pistols, as currently RoF 3 doesn't give any bonus, which often makes shooting at RoF 3 pointless.

2. Simplified approach: just lower Rapid Fire bonus by 1 while shooting any weapon with Rcl 3+.

I don't mean that basic rules are bad or something, but I'm curious if it's possible and playable to reflect full-auto/burst controllability in such way. Opinions invited.

UPD: My bad: .40 S&W has Rcl 2 as well, so introducing my house rule won't make things easier for 9x19 Para.
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Old 08-26-2016, 02:37 AM   #2
Gef
 
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Default Re: Rapid Fire bonus and Rcl

Hi Erling,

I've never fired an automatic weapon in real life, but I see your point. Looking at it from a game-mechanics point of view, trying to keep it simple, why not modify rapid fire bonus by Rcl+1, period?
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Old 08-26-2016, 02:48 AM   #3
Tomsdad
 
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Default Re: Rapid Fire bonus and Rcl

I think part of this is the Rcl Stat in GURPS actually means several different things including the combined controllable of the round in combination with the gun itself.

Which is why 7.62 NATO in the FN Fal rifle has Rcl 3, but in a LMG thats 2-3x as heavy it has Rcl 2 (but of course that LMG will have a higher MInST because it's heavier)

Or a more direct comparison would be say the BAR to the Garand.


(basically the point is if you want to fire 7.62 or 30.06 out of weapon held like a rifle and have it be as controllable as a 5.56 assault rifle it need to be considerably heavier than most battle rifles were. Which comes with its own downsides when being shot like rifle).

Ultimately the way GURPS condenses multiple rounds being fired into one roll to hit does throw up some wrinkles. But then rolling to hit with every bullet is a pain in the behind!

Last edited by Tomsdad; 08-26-2016 at 08:00 AM.
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Old 08-26-2016, 03:01 AM   #4
Erling
 
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Default Re: Rapid Fire bonus and Rcl

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
I think part of this is the Rcl Stat in GURPS actually means several different things including the combined controllable of the round in combination with gun itself

Which is why 7.62 NATO in the FN Fal rifle has Rcl 3, but in a LMG that 2-3x as heavy it has Rcl 2 (but of course that LMG will have a higher MInST because it's heavier)

Or a more direct comparison would be say the BAR to the Garand.

(basically the point is if you want to fire 7.62 or 30.06 out of weapon held like rifle and have it be as controllable as a 5.56 assault rifle it need to be considerably heavier than most battle rifles were).
Sure. That's why I suggest using "effective" Rcl (derived from both weapon and cartridge) in my proposed house rule.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
This however raises a point I think in real life rapid fire / FA fire is used in very different ways at different ranges and set ups. e.g shoot till down at close range and supressive fire at long ranges for example.

(but that said I'm sure it's not hard and fast categories that never crossover either!)
That's definitely true, but I believe that aiding to hit at least once is among purposes of rapid fire.
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Last edited by Erling; 08-26-2016 at 03:06 AM.
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Old 08-26-2016, 03:36 AM   #5
McAllister
 
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Default Re: Rapid Fire bonus and Rcl

To Tomsdad's point, I've always wanted RCL to interact with ST somehow. In Shadowrun, being a ten-foot tall troll gives you an advantage in dealing with recoil. I'd like to see something for that in GURPS, or is there something I'm missing?

Anyway, I like this concept. Reduce RoF bonus by 1 for RCL 4+, increase it by 1 for RCL 2, increase it by 2 for RCL 1, and add a bit of granularity for small bursts with low RCL. Definitely makes RCL more important. Are there any ways to reduce a gun's RCL outside of using different rounds?
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Old 08-26-2016, 04:12 AM   #6
Tomsdad
 
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Default Re: Rapid Fire bonus and Rcl

Quote:
Originally Posted by McAllister View Post
To Tomsdad's point, I've always wanted RCL to interact with ST somehow. In Shadowrun, being a ten-foot tall troll gives you an advantage in dealing with recoil. I'd like to see something for that in GURPS, or is there something I'm missing?

Anyway, I like this concept. Reduce RoF bonus by 1 for RCL 4+, increase it by 1 for RCL 2, increase it by 2 for RCL 1, and add a bit of granularity for small bursts with low RCL. Definitely makes RCL more important. Are there any ways to reduce a gun's RCL outside of using different rounds?
I have a tweak that allows people who exceed MinST to get a bonus to hit just for the purposes of negating the effects of Rcl as follows:

For every 2* your ST exceeds MinST you get one extra success for deciding if you hit with subsequent rounds. I.e it doesn't make you more likely to hit over all but it makes it more likely to hit more than once.


This I find also further promotes two handed pistol fire and braced rifle fire for people who's Basic ST already meets the MinST requirements. I.e is good for double taps with 9mm etc




*for greater effect make this a 1:1 relationship

Last edited by Tomsdad; 08-26-2016 at 07:53 AM.
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Old 08-26-2016, 06:04 AM   #7
evileeyore
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Default Re: Rapid Fire bonus and Rcl

Quote:
Originally Posted by McAllister View Post
To Tomsdad's point, I've always wanted RCL to interact with ST somehow. In Shadowrun, being a ten-foot tall troll gives you an advantage in dealing with recoil. I'd like to see something for that in GURPS, or is there something I'm missing?
Yes, Shadowrun's rules are balls and have nothing to do with reality.

The best answer for "What Bonus Should Really High ST give versus Rcl?" is to count the Troll as always being Braced when firing (I think the recommended house rule was 'ST 5 higher than minimum', though you can flavor to taste). Further Bracing gives no benefit as a good portion of the Rcl stat comes from the weapon's tolerances and how it's parts inherently move when fired.
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Old 08-26-2016, 06:06 AM   #8
McAllister
 
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Default Re: Rapid Fire bonus and Rcl

Quote:
Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
Yes, Shadowrun's rules are balls and have nothing to do with reality.

The best answer for "What Bonus Should Really High ST give versus Rcl?" is to count the Troll as always being Braced when firing (I think the recommended house rule was 'ST 5 higher than minimum', though you can flavor to taste). Further Bracing gives no benefit as a good portion of the Rcl stat comes from the weapon's tolerances and how it's parts inherently move when fired.
Haha, I've always suspected Shadowrun's rules are balls. The first bullet in a burst deals somewhere between 4 and 9 damage, and each subsequent bullet that hits adds an additional 1? What nonsense. But it is a fun setting.

Honestly, "automatically braced when ST exceeds minimum by 5" makes sense, and it's plenty to model the kind of advantage I'm thinking of. EDIT: actually, bracing doesn't do what I thought it did, and provides no bonus to unaimed shots. So I think I'm more likely to be happy with Tomsdad's rule where ST in excess of the minimum makes shots past the first more likely to connect.
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Old 08-26-2016, 06:34 AM   #9
Ulzgoroth
 
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Default Re: Rapid Fire bonus and Rcl

Quote:
Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
Yes, Shadowrun's rules are balls and have nothing to do with reality.

The best answer for "What Bonus Should Really High ST give versus Rcl?" is to count the Troll as always being Braced when firing (I think the recommended house rule was 'ST 5 higher than minimum', though you can flavor to taste). Further Bracing gives no benefit as a good portion of the Rcl stat comes from the weapon's tolerances and how it's parts inherently move when fired.
Actually, that sets you on a path to increasing Braced bonuses. Tactical Shooting added higher-value levels of Braced for guns mounted on flexible or tripod mounts (+2) and hard mounts (+4). A sufficiently strong and stable shooter obviously could replicate the benefits of those mountings, in theory. Bearing in mind that 'sufficiently strong and stable shooter' could be a multiton robot tank 'holding' the weapon in a turret mounting modeled as a Weapon Mount.

There also might be a case for being able to reduce Rcl, though not below 2. It's common for a round that produces Rcl 3+ in small arms to be fired from bigger, heavier weapons at Rcl 2. I suspect Rcl above 2 is actually assigned due to difficulty controlling the gun due to recoil, which is something the right kind of strength could actually counter.
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Old 08-26-2016, 07:02 AM   #10
Tomsdad
 
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Default Re: Rapid Fire bonus and Rcl

Quote:
Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
... as a good portion of the Rcl stat comes from the weapon's tolerances and how it's parts inherently move when fired.
It can do (stuff like the Kriss Super V, or the various specialised guns that qualify for the # rule would be in GURPS terms strong examples of that), but it can also just be as simple as the FN MAG is three times as heavy as the FN FAL.

Last edited by Tomsdad; 08-26-2016 at 07:09 AM.
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