ALT GURPS II: Last Gasp (new optional FP rules from Pyramid)

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

Build 2 [8]
HT 14 [40]
FP 10 [-12]
Speed -1 [-20]

You'll note that what you're doing here has nothing to do with anything in my article at all.

You've managed to get +4 to HT rolls by selling back speed and FP, which basically says that a +4 to ALL HT-based stuff costs 8 points, or 2 points per level, which is less than the cost of one single HT skill once you get to the 4/level cost.

As a result, HT/Speed/FP is already a bit of a point crock, and my adding AP isn't the source of the problem (but does make it worse). Nothing I can do about that other than if AP costs 2/level, make HT cost at least 12 per level.

If you look at it this way

Metabolism Control: +1 to many HT rolls for stuff that isn't skills; this is similar to Fit: 5 points seems to be the right price for this.
Fatigue Points: 3 per level
Basic Speed: 20 points per level, requires +4 HT for each +1: 5 points
Skills: There aren't that many HT-based skills - 11 in the Basic Set. A Talent that raises all of those skills by +1 costs 10 points. (see below for why this is probably too high)
Action Points: 2 per level.

So just adding up the pieces, HT should probably cost 25 points per level! Now, the "+1 to all skills" bit tends to be discounted for attributes:

DX, for example, is 20 per level.
+1 to 13 or more skills is 15/level (again, this is probably discounted when push comes to shove)
DX figures into Basic Speed as well: 5/level

That's 20 points right there, even without the benefit of making DX rolls to stay upright, or make a striking or grappling attack or defense using just DX.

Now, let's suppose that the cost of the ability to buy skills with attributes is discounted by 1/2 to 2/3 because it's just more efficient to train EVERYTHING having to do with fitness or coordination than do one thing at a time. So the cost of all HT skills is 3-5 points (5-7 less than above, or 7-9 less if you also strip out AP), and the cost of all DX skills would thus be 5-7 points.

That still argues for HT at around 11-13 points if you don't add in AP, and 13-15 points if you DO.

TL;DR

Net/net: if you want to avoid funky crap like that, price HT at 15 points per level. Otherwise, you're just straining your gears to no good purpose.

[NineDaysDead]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Well since you guys just spent two pages convincing me that the cost of doubling your AP recovery rate (which is what the 1-2-5-10 progression does) is 25 points, this means Second Wind, at 25 points to double your AP recovery rate from HT/2 to HT is perfectly priced.

Firstly: I don't recall arguing for Regeneration (AP Recovery) doubling AP recovery rate costing 25 points...

Secondly: Those arguements are for Regeneration (AP Recovery) not for Second Wind.

Thirdly: You haven't actually engaged with the arguement I've put forward, you haven't addressed any of the points.

Personally I would decouple AP recovery speed from HT and set it at a fixed 5 AP for 1 FP, healthy people will still have higher FP and so be able to trade in more FP.

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

That leaves AP, which can cost 1 or 2 per level; the playtesters convinced me that 3 points/level was too much.

If you want to add a new quantity to HT (which I have) and have all costs work out, you're probably going to need to have HT cost 12-15 points per level, or drop AP down to 1 per level, or both.

I think 1 AP per level is far too cheap.

Personally I would split the cost of FP [3/level] in Action Points (Cool stuff) [2/level] and Fatigue* Points (Boring stuff) [1/level]

*Maybe rename fatigue tiredness or something.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

Part of the issue as discussed above is that Recovery Actions base the amount of AP restored on a HT roll. So +1 HT gives +1 AP and +1 to the average MOS to recover AP. Perhaps instead of +1 AP [2], it could be +1 HT (Only for AP total and recovery, -80%) [2]. I'm hesitant to alter the price of a core attribute, though I can see the rationale in this case.

You and I got to the same place on this one, though I amplify further: HT is already a bit of a "full" attribute in terms of what you pay for what you get, and AP just makes it worse.

[Langy]

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

Part of the issue as discussed above is that Recovery Actions base the amount of AP restored on a HT roll. So +1 HT gives +1 AP and +1 to the average MOS to recover AP. Perhaps instead of +1 AP [2], it could be +1 HT (Only for AP total and recovery, -80%) [2]. I'm hesitant to alter the price of a core attribute, though I can see the rationale in this case.

+1 to MoS grants a +1/4 to the average amount of AP recovered, not +1.

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

Thirdly: You haven't actually engaged with the arguement I've put forward, you haven't addressed any of the points.

I can understand why he didn't - arguments about the cost-utility of purchasing HT and then selling the stuff it gives back piecemeal always work out badly. If I remember right, base HT already costs -2 points per level just for the increase to HT rolls, or something like that.

In other words, you shouldn't make an argument like this while including 'selling back' FP, AP, etc. GURPS deliberately underprices HT in order to make people survive better, just like Combat Reflexes.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

Firstly: I don't recall arguing for Regeneration (AP Recovery) doubling AP recovery rate costing 25 points...

The 1-2-5-10 progression that Langy and Veriasmarius liked (and I'll admit I do too) is basically "you double the rate of AP regained." That's 25 points per doubling, and getting twice as many AP back per unit time is thus established at 25 points.

Secondly: Those arguements are for Regeneration (AP Recovery) not for Second Wind.

It's a recovery rate, it applies to both.

Thirdly: You haven't actually engaged with the arguement I've put forward, you haven't addressed any of the points.

That's because they're inherently built on a pre-existing design quirk of the game that I can't change. So any arguments build on that foundation (which both of your builds were) involve things I can't do anything about.

Personally I would decouple AP recovery speed from HT and set it at a fixed 5 AP for 1 FP, healthy people will still have higher FP and so be able to trade in more FP.

I find this inelegant from a realism point of view. Fit, healthy people get their wind back faster. So buying up HT SHOULD increase AP recovery. This probably speaks to HT not costing enough in ANY game, and being that much more of a bargain when you figure AP into the mix.

Personally I would split the cost of FP [3/level] in Action Points (Cool stuff) [2/level] and Fatigue Points (Boring stuff) [1/level]

In order to do that, you need to decouple FP from Extra Effort, Magic, Enthrallment skills, and many other things that you can spend FP on.

Honestly, I think the basic problem here is that HT is too cheap for what it does already. I'll cop to making it worse.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

Personally I would decouple AP recovery speed from HT and set it at a fixed 5 AP for 1 FP, healthy people will still have higher FP and so be able to trade in more FP.

Personally I would split the cost of FP [3/level] in Action Points (Cool stuff) [2/level] and Fatigue* Points (Boring stuff) [1/level]

*Maybe rename fatigue tiredness or something.

I think keeping it tied to HT is better then tying it to FP.
As for changing the cost of FP to per level that I think is a problem as well FP is very useful.

[NineDaysDead]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

You'll note that what you're doing here has nothing to do with anything in my article at all.

Not true. You tied AP to HT very tightly, I'm pointing out the consequences of that. I would distance AP from HT slightly:

Break Fatigue [3/level] into Action Points (Cool stuff) [2/level] and Languor* Points (Boring stuff) [1/level].


*or whatever...

Set Second wind to a fixed 5 AP for 1 FP, healthy people will still have higher FP and so be able to trade in more FP. This could be bought up at +1 AP [+5?]

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

Not true.

Allow me to amplify. The initial build you quoted where you paid 40 points for +4 HT, and -32 points for -1 to Basic Speed and -4 FP, is in and of itself problematic. From this foundation, AP makes that problem 2 points/level worse, which I admit. But the build you posted, as Langy pointed out, is inherently flawed as a basis for argument about AP. It is, however, an excellent basis from which to argue that HT is, even in RAW GURPS, underpriced.

You tied AP to HT very tightly, I'm pointing out the consequences of that. I would distance AP from HT slightly:

Break Fatigue [3/level] into Action Points (Cool stuff) [2/level] and Languor* Points (Boring stuff) [1/level].


*or whatever...

Set Second wind to a fixed 5 AP for 1 FP, healthy people will still have higher FP and so be able to trade in more FP. This could be bought up at +1 AP [+5?]

While you are of course free to do whatever you wish, I don't find this solution to my taste, so as the author of this particular article, I cannot embrace it.

[NineDaysDead]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

It's a recovery rate, it applies to both.

Are you suggesting that Rapid Healing should cost 25 points? It's also a recovery rate.

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

I find this inelegant from a realism point of view. Fit, healthy people get their wind back faster.

In the normal rules, buying up HT doesn't accelerate FP recovery, you have to buy Fit for that. You should get what you pay for, if you want to be able to do something, then pay the points for it.

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

In order to do that, you need to decouple FP from Extra Effort, Magic, Enthrallment skills, and many other things that you can spend FP on.

As you suggested in your article, I would use AP for cool stuff like Extra Effort, Magic, Enthrallment skills etc...

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Honestly, I think the basic problem here is that HT is too cheap for what it does already. I'll cop to making it worse.

And I don't think you need to make it worse in order to implement the AP system.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Langy

In other words, you shouldn't make an argument like this while including 'selling back' FP, AP, etc. GURPS deliberately underprices HT in order to make people survive better, just like Combat Reflexes.

I'll note that RPK slapped me gently on the wrist for allowing, in my submitted draft, the selling back of AP as well! He quoted Kuroshima (Antoni Ten) in spirit, since he also pointed out the issues with selling back things based on HT.

RPK's solution was to make it so you can only buy AP up. Since, as NineDaysDead rightly points out, I have coupled HT and AP very tightly, I probably should have increased the suggested cost of HT to at least 12, and probably 15, points per level.

I was not really actively aware of the cost breakdown of HT and its parts. I tended to ignore (and even perhaps deride) the HT! arguments in the past. Working out the math, so to speak, in how HT (and DX, as an example) break down in point cost, and the extreme discount you have to put on (either or both) the value of +1 to attribute rolls or +1 to all skills was an eye-opener to me.

It doesn't change how I build CHARACTERS. But if I'm going to contribute to the design and execution of GURPS through articles like this one, I must become more familiar with them, clearly, so that I might ensure to avoid (or at least take active notice/acknowledge in passing) design pitfalls.