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Old 10-29-2012, 03:14 PM   #31
Nosforontu
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Default Re: Dungeon Fantasy party compositions

You also have to consider game mechanics in these discussions of "freak parties" as well. When selecting a race to play in fantasy game x players will most commonly select one that either plays directly to the game mechanics that they wish to emphasize (an ogre which is very strong for a barbarian which is also a strong hitter), or they will see how successful they can be by playing against type (barbarian pixie). They are also going to assume that simply by being offered the species in a PHB that their race selection is at least somewhat normal for that world.

Indeed that is something to keep very close in mind since in a world where pixies, undead, demons and a hundred other sapient creatures exist it seems just as odd to several types of players that only humans or only tolkien species travel/adventure together and that these other creatures are simply waiting for us in abandoned ruins instead.
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Old 10-29-2012, 04:37 PM   #32
Dammann
 
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Default Re: Dungeon Fantasy party compositions

My current DF campaign uses Threshold Magic for Wizards and the Dungeon Saints in place of standard clerics and holy warriors. Druids use a restricted form of RPM, although it hasn't yet come up. I gave a list of pre-approved character races with the intro material, and told players that if they wanted to play something freakier, we'd talk.

My party is pretty vanilla compared to some of these you all describe! My players and I try to reason out relationships for most of the characters. They all prioritize their mission(s), often restating their personal reasons for doing what they do.

Humphrey - Human Holy Warrior - good fighter and charming, but somewhat uninterested in mortals; the party leader who doesn't seem to realize he's in charge

Ash - Shadow Elf Ninja - this character's player is really into one-on-one sessions, and fuels an interesting party dynamic; he is very competent, but very difficult to trust, and the other characters all have different levels of trust in him

Powder - Human Wizard - an albino specializing in lightning spells, obsessed with being struck by lightning, always watching the skies wistfully

Clint - Human Butcher - built w/o a template, this is a character built aimed at Targeted Attack: Neck technique; he is also an epicurean who'd like to taste every kind of meat out there

Sydney - Human Swashbuckler - a swordmaster and affable lothario who has charmed a kappa into becoming his companion during play

Grizena - Half-Ogre Barbarian - the Human Holy Warrior's half-sister, she provides front line fighting as well as wilderness capability; employs a large hawk to hunt and help fight

Reggie - Ogre Monk - quotes his Sifu without ever making as much sense as a fortune cookie, using his garbled recollections to justify whatever it is he wants to do; racial and chi-based DR make this unarmed fighter a solid front line fighter

Finn - Halfling Cleric - a priest of a death and fatalism god, a fine beer enthusiast, and comforter of orphaned children; shares leadership burdens when the party is in town, but less able to direct the party in the field
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Old 10-29-2012, 04:43 PM   #33
b-dog
 
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Default Re: Dungeon Fantasy party compositions

How do you DM a game with a bunch of Mary Sues? They seem to end up overshadowing the game and they seem to turn the game into slapstick. I am not against jokes and silly play but it seems when players have a half minotaur/pixie ninja/scholar that worships Garl Glittergold it can steer a game in a direction where the entire time is joking and silliness.
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Old 10-29-2012, 05:08 PM   #34
Aneirin
 
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Default Re: Dungeon Fantasy party compositions

It isn't about what the character is, but how its played.

If someone plays a half ninja pixie scholar that worships Garl Glittergold, and never shuts up about it, and focues on what his character is, then yeah, it gets annoying.

If that same person makes the same character, but ust acts like a normal person, perhaps acting in a minotaur like way and acts normally, it works out fine.

Ofcourse if it is not the tone of the game you want with lots of strange creatures together feel free to say no, but as has been said before, it isn't really fair to call odd characters Mary Sue...unless they act like a prat.

A mary sue is more about the personality. Not about the make up (though to be fair, people who do make characters like this are more liekly to make annoying personalities up as well)
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Old 10-29-2012, 05:17 PM   #35
Dammann
 
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Default Re: Dungeon Fantasy party compositions

For my part, I don't DM, I GM. I haven't owned a DMG since the 80s. My current campaign has a lot of the same trappings as D&D, but so does WoW. I don't think Blizzard is running a D&D campaign, and neither am I, even if they'd look pretty similar as tv shows.

Some people like comedy, some like drama. I like both, and I find that the drama is heightened by a default atmosphere that is more lighthearted. Our happy-go-lucky party was looking forward to combat as they searched for monsters, and when they found some and waded in slashing, they found themselves feeling a bit horrified and guilty when the emerged victorious and covered in blood and treasure. A cool contrast is emerging for us- a longing for violence, and a very ambivalent aftermath. I give my monsters motives (defend the home cave, get something to eat, prove our manhood to the tribe), and sometimes the players work those motives out as the fighting dies down. It is cool to watch fear turn into confidence, and then into avarice mixed with remorse. It seems like everyone is on board, so long as they get to exercise their own character's area of competence.

Mary Sue is not a term that fits games well. I don't object to Mary Sue characters in video games, even though they certainly exist in most video games. I am not saying, "hey, this maze is just here for Pac-man to eat everything," or "these Covenant goons are just lined up so I can shoot them and take their guns." RPGs have a story, but so does Mass Effect. They are both games, and as long as success isn't guaranteed, it is ok for a player to advocate for his personal in-game avatar.

I object to Mary Sues in literature because it makes for bad literature. In games, the audience controls a character, which is very different from an author who builds a story to glorify a character. In a TT RPG, the other PCs, NPCs, etc, don't exist to exalt one of the PCs, and none of my players expect that. They each see it as their own job to find ways to be the hero (or anti-hero).

I see my job as maintaining appropriate tension on the rope of narrative, which does NOT mean constant tension. It means resistance and reward, excitement and the routine, comedy and terror. Expectations must be confirmed sometimes and overturned other times. I use random encounters very seldom. Instead, I read my players' moods and send in challenges and disasters and windfalls as appropriate. I realize that this is a particular gaming paradigm, but it works for me and my players. My pre-game notes include treasure, monsters, environmental hazards, and many, many NPCs. My post-game notes include player actions, treasure collected, major events, and changes I made to NPCs in-game.

A Monty Haul game is the closest thing to a Mary Sue situation I've encountered in gaming, and most people I've played with don't seem to like it. They want there to be risk and drama. If there is a level of confidence that everyone will emerge alive and rich and respected, regardless of choices and chance, why not write fanfic? But I find that is pretty easy to avoid.
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Old 10-29-2012, 05:20 PM   #36
b-dog
 
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Default Re: Dungeon Fantasy party compositions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aneirin View Post

A mary sue is more about the personality. Not about the make up (though to be fair, people who do make characters like this are more liekly to make annoying personalities up as well)
It is true that when a player wants an absurd PC they usually play them in an annoying way. But one annoying PC is not too bad but what happens is that other players seem to want to compete in making absurd PCs as well. Then the whole game becomes cheap jokes and then the players get bored and want to do something else. In this situation it is difficult to gettgetthe players drawn into the game and interested in the adventure.
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Old 10-29-2012, 05:23 PM   #37
Jaden
 
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Default Re: Dungeon Fantasy party compositions

GMing for my kids, I have the following:

Catfolk cleric - impulsive to the extreme
Half-elf thief
Halfling scout
Human barbarian - doesn't seem to get that best thing she can do in a fight it hit it again (she wants to do something different every turn)

Catfolk cleric has already caused a near TPK from an IDed summon trap (set on hex x, summon another baddie), by tripping the trap 3 times in a row.
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Old 10-29-2012, 05:28 PM   #38
Dammann
 
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Default Re: Dungeon Fantasy party compositions

To further burden my rope metaphor, if people are being too silly, I let the rope of narrative become slack. Then I yank on it when they notice. This happens fairly predictably in my group. The first hour has a lack of focus that is in sharp contrast to the intensity of the last hour.
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Old 10-29-2012, 05:30 PM   #39
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Default Re: Dungeon Fantasy party compositions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaden View Post
sip
(she wants to do something different every turn)
snip
I would love this problem.
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Old 10-29-2012, 05:32 PM   #40
Aneirin
 
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Default Re: Dungeon Fantasy party compositions

I think dammann gave some very sage words of advice (I have learnt so much from this topic!)

An RPG is difficult as the GM/DM is there to make things fun for the players. He has to set some limits, and needs a group that has the same idea of fun, and ofcourse the GM/DM needs to have fun too.

If one of these things is missing it needs a sit down and talk and compromise or a new group.

If players ar ein competition with each other, figure out what they are competing for? Spot light? Then have a discussion with the GM/DM and make sure each group gets a fair share of spotlight time and make it clear that no matter how complex or intricate a backstory, they will not get the time to do it if it means they get more time than other PC's, many will either not bother, or will accept it and most will remain a secret or they will jam it all in at once and rush it.

If the group is not taking things seriously, ask yourself, do I want a serious game, then have a word with the players, we have had a lot of silly campaigns, I was wondering if we could try something more conventional, I will be limiting character options, because you seem to get bored, we will have more focus on skills rather than advantages (and then big up skills such as best swordsman, has a technique to shoot the eyes better, really good feinter)

Most often, the problem descrbed by yourself comes when PC's are focused on their character and character alone, and don't care about the GM/DM's story. If the GM/DM is interested in his story and the PC's are but replaceable actors, then PC's get bored because their characters arent focuse don and DM/GM gets bored as his story is not focused on.

A god way around this problem is to assess the PC's backstories (no matter how bad they are...and some of them are ****ing atrocious! And as that is an excercize in literature for many the PC's in their backstories can and often are Mary Sues) and see if you ccan integrate them into the story so by going along with the story, their characters are explroed as well.

And ofcourse, feel free to say that bit of your backstory may not work, what are you trying to acheive, okay, how about we compromise, I was thinking of doing this, if your character backstory changes a bit I should be able to integrate you better into the story.

Ofcourse not all will accept, and if they get bored that is there fault, though try to throw him a few bones, if after trying this your group still doesn't engage and talking is not working, you need to get them playing computer games where their interactions with others arne't important and find a new group.
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