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Old 02-23-2020, 06:45 AM   #1
khorboth
 
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Location: Denver, CO
Default [MAGIC] Dancing weapon and defenses

Does Dancing Weapon, in some cases, give multiple defense rolls?

Let's say a PC has a rapier and a buckler both with Dancing Weapon cast on them. The level doesn't matter. Assume general fantasy world.

Case 1: If someone attacks the PC in melee. I presume the PC still only get one defense roll. I can see a case for the shield defending, the sword defending, AND the PC dodging, but that seems abusive. I would think that the player has to pick.

Case 2: A missile attack where the shield is in the same hex as the PC. Again, while I can see an argument for a block and a dodge, I would say there isn't time to react to the first defense before the second must be performed.

Note: In both of these cases, I would allow an all-out defense (double) to be one from the dancing weapon and one from the individual.

Case 3: The rapier and shield are closer to the attacker than the PC, no longer in the same hex. And it's a melee attack. Say, a reach 2 spear with the weapon and shield interposing. Now, I'm less sure. A second PC in this position could use a defense roll to block or parry for a friend. So, shouldn't and independent pseudo-fighter?

Case 4: The rapier and shield are closer to the attacker than the PC, no longer in the same hex. And it's a missile weapon. Here, I think the shield gets a block and then the PC gets a dodge (or block if there's a second shield) but... I'm just not totally sure.

Bonus question: If the dancing weapon is a rapier, does it get the fencing weapon bonus to multiple parries? I understand that's as much about body position and footwork as anything weapon-related, so... I'm not sure it makes sense to do so.

Thoughts?
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Old 02-23-2020, 07:57 AM   #2
Plane
 
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Default Re: [MAGIC] Dancing weapon and defenses

Quote:
Originally Posted by khorboth View Post
Does Dancing Weapon, in some cases, give multiple defense rolls?

Let's say a PC has a rapier and a buckler both with Dancing Weapon cast on them. The level doesn't matter. Assume general fantasy world.

Case 1: If someone attacks the PC in melee. I presume the PC still only get one defense roll. I can see a case for the shield defending, the sword defending, AND the PC dodging, but that seems abusive. I would think that the player has to pick.
I view it like a Sacrificial Block and Sacrificial Parry by separate characters, so yeah, 3 defence rolls.

Remember: it's not the mage defending, they could be taking All-Out-Attack while letting their magic weapons do the defences if they want. All-Out Defence only pertains to THEIR defences.

The weapons could even take All-Out Defence: Double, with their first defence being a block or parry and the 2nd defence being a Sacrificial Dodge :)

There probably should be some kind of rule where eventually a horde of Sacrificial Parriers eventually get in each other's way all trying to defend the same guy in a short period of time.

Like for example... there's a -2 skill penalty to "Attack Into Close Combat"

If somebody just did a Sacrificial Parry, you could assume this means their weapon is sharing the hex of the person they just defended...

So for the next person to Sacrifical Parry, perhaps they should be -2 to skill (-1 to parry) to do the next Sacrificial Parry?

Last edited by Plane; 02-23-2020 at 08:02 AM.
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Old 02-23-2020, 07:44 PM   #3
Dalin
 
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Default Re: [MAGIC] Dancing weapon and defenses

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Originally Posted by khorboth View Post
Let's say a PC has a rapier and a buckler both with Dancing Weapon cast on them. The level doesn't matter. Assume general fantasy world.
Note that the buckler requires the Dancing Shield enchantment and the weapon won't defend unless it also has Defending Weapon on it. So, this scenario requires three enchantments. Assuming that that's what you meant, then the dancing buckler and rapier have no bearing on the PC's active defenses. If any attacks get past them, then the PC can defend normally:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Magic, p. 64
If a dancing, defending weapon does not parry a blow, the owner may still use any of his own applicable defenses.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magic, p. 67
The shield can Block two different attacks per turn, regardless of its owner’s actions (so the owner could parry any blow that got by the shield, for instance).
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Old 02-23-2020, 08:00 PM   #4
Plane
 
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Default Re: [MAGIC] Dancing weapon and defenses

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Originally Posted by Dalin View Post
the weapon won't defend unless it also has Defending Weapon on it
M63:
fights on its own at the owner’s command, hanging in the air as though wielded by an invisible warrior. It has a skill of 15
..
follows its owner’s spoken or mental commands about which enemy to attack
I don't see anything there about being unable to parry.

M64's description mentions some stuff, but if we think that anything mentioned under Defending Weapon means that Dancing Weapon can't normally do it... well Defending Weapon says this:
the weapon attacks opponents engaged with the owner
That seems like something you could normally do anyway, just give the command "attack people engaging me in combat".

So since we now know that Defending Weapon mentioning something a weapon does doesn't mean you couldn't normally do it... the only basis seems to be that "attacks opponents" does not mean parrying.

Would that mean there's no incentive for a normal Dancing Weapon to do anything but All-Out Attack maneuvers?
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Old 02-23-2020, 08:32 PM   #5
Dalin
 
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Default Re: [MAGIC] Dancing weapon and defenses

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Originally Posted by Plane View Post
Would that mean there's no incentive for a normal Dancing Weapon to do anything but All-Out Attack maneuvers?
That's an interesting question. My sense is that the spell was intended to give a weapon a single attack per turn at a basic skill level, so I probably wouldn't allow AoA. But that's just the way I would rule it.
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Old 02-23-2020, 08:52 PM   #6
khorboth
 
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Default Re: [MAGIC] Dancing weapon and defenses

Thanks for the page references. It does seem pretty clear, even if a bit abusive. On the other hand, it's not like those are cheap enchantments. So, IF the rapier is also defending and the buckler is actually a dancing shield...

A melee attack would have to get through block, parry, and then whatever the PC has.

So, Any opinions on the Fencing bonus to parry? That seems a little muddy still.

Regarding the AoA... There are rules for attacking the dancing weapon, so I would presume that it would either make that easier to attack or in some other manner deny it defense.
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Old 02-23-2020, 09:49 PM   #7
Dalillama
 
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Default Re: [MAGIC] Dancing weapon and defenses

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Originally Posted by Plane View Post
I don't see anything there about being unable to parry.
That's because it can parry. If someone's trying to destroy the weapon, the weapon can move to take the blow in a non-damaging fashion. Parrying attacks aimed at the owner is a whole other thing.
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Old 02-23-2020, 11:53 PM   #8
Plane
 
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Default Re: [MAGIC] Dancing weapon and defenses

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalin View Post
That's an interesting question. My sense is that the spell was intended to give a weapon a single attack per turn at a basic skill level, so I probably wouldn't allow AoA. But that's just the way I would rule it.
B63 allows it to fight "as though wielded by an invisible warrior" and invisible warriors would have standard maneuver choices.

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Originally Posted by Dalillama View Post
That's because it can parry. If someone's trying to destroy the weapon, the weapon can move to take the blow in a non-damaging fashion. Parrying attacks aimed at the owner is a whole other thing.
Anybody (no perk needed) can do a Sacrificial Dodge, and since success results in you bring the new target of an attack, if you took AOD:Double, your 2nd defence could be the parry.

Or... if we're really focused on the "attack" aspect...

Instruct your weapon to "Wait ... Stop Hit by Striking At Weapons the first thing to attack me!"
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Old 02-24-2020, 02:46 PM   #9
Dalin
 
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Default Re: [MAGIC] Dancing weapon and defenses

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Originally Posted by khorboth View Post
So, Any opinions on the Fencing bonus to parry? That seems a little muddy still.
Yeah, this one is tricky. As a player, I would be fine with the call either way, as long as it was consistent. Note also that the bonus only happens with a retreat, so it might move the weapon out of position (and it may be unable to retreat if the hex is occupied). For the standard level of enchantment, the weapon would have skill 15 to attack, skill 16/2+3=11 to parry. With a non-fencing weapon, the parry could go up to 12 for a retreat. Fencing weapons would go up to 14. A downside for fencing weapons, of course, is that they can be broken much more easily. It's an expensive enchantment to put on a blade that could be shattered by the first ogre who swats it.

Again, though, I think it's just as reasonable to say that the enchantment is not sophisticated enough to manage the finesse of a proper fencing parry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
B63 allows it to fight "as though wielded by an invisible warrior" and invisible warriors would have standard maneuver choices.
With magic, there are so many contradictions within the text that I just go with whatever call seems to make sense for the feel of the campaign. To my mind, the enchantment is worth the price for something that just attacks once per turn without deciding on a pile of different maneuver options. From a textual basis, I would be totally fine with your interpretation, too. I just worry that it would slow things down too much in play.

With all of this said, I haven't seen these enchantments in play for many years, so any calls I make would be provisional until I thought about the consequences in the context of a live campaign.
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Old 02-24-2020, 04:00 PM   #10
Plane
 
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Default Re: [MAGIC] Dancing weapon and defenses

One thing we should keep in mind about the 1 parry / 2 parry statement in Defending Weapon...

B182
Boxing allows you to parry two different attacks per turn
Brawling allows you to parry two different attacks per turn

B203
Judo allows you to parry two different attacks per turn
Karate allows you to parry two different attacks per turn

In practice these don't appear to be hard caps, IE it's just saying how many parries you do at full skill before you just apply the -4 to parry and you can keep doing additional ones. I don't see why it would be any different for Defending Weapon.

Rather than 0/0/-4/-4 (assuming there is no 'off hand') I'd probably use the 0/-2/-4/-6 for parrying with 2-handed weapons.

I figure we can treat a "Defending Weapon" as being wielded 2 handed regardless of whether it's normally 1H or 2H (the "warrior" has nothing else to do, after all) so you could do stuff like "Supported Parry" or "Defensive Grip".

Options are possibly slowdown but if a player knows the options well and preps their stats ahead of time I don't think it would add much. Biggest waste is looking up rules during combat instead of befoer.
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