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Old 09-07-2010, 11:04 AM   #11
Crakkerjakk
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Default Re: Blunt Trauma and Skulls

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Originally Posted by Mailanka View Post
He takes 15 points of Damage which is stopped by his DR of 18 (DR 16 from Helmet + DR 2 from skull), and three points of blunt trauma would go through.
This is my understanding as well. You don't do stuff a layer at a time, you add all the DR and resolve it, barring different types of DR (flexible or non, although that doesn't matter in the case of falls).
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Old 09-07-2010, 11:10 AM   #12
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Default Re: Blunt Trauma and Skulls

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Originally Posted by jacobmuller View Post
Target falls onto his skull. His helmet is DR16 and he suffers 15 damage from the fall. That's 3 points of Blunt Trauma. His innate skull DR stops 2 points.
No. Blunt trauma is injury, not penetrating damage. Injury, by definition, is the amount of hit points you lose after DR has been taken into account. So blunt trauma will never be stopped by DR.

Look at it this way. You have to resolve it all at once, so you don't have "DR 16 and DR 2" -- you have "DR 18, 16 of which happens to be flexible." So when you fall on your skull and take 15 points of damage, 2 damage is stopped by your innate DR and 13 from your flexible DR. Thus, you'd take (13/5) = 2 points of injury to the skull. If you'd been injured anywhere else, all 15 points would've been stopped by flexible DR, so you'd take (15/5) = 3 points of injury to that hit location.

Quote:
Am I wrong to apply the Brain injury wound multiplier to the remaining damage? (B399 "Exception: None of these effects apply to toxic damage.")
You missed the line on p. B379 under Wounding Modifiers and Injury: "Note that blunt trauma injury has no wounding modifier." Wounding modifiers are applied to penetrating damage, not to injury. Blunt trauma is the latter -- it just comes right off your HP as-is.

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If he has an armoured skull, DR16, that would be innate DR and block all damage, yes?
Yes, exactly.
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Old 09-07-2010, 11:32 AM   #13
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Default Re: Blunt Trauma and Skulls

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Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty View Post
No. Blunt trauma is injury, not penetrating damage. Injury, by definition, is the amount of hit points you lose after DR has been taken into account. So blunt trauma will never be stopped by DR.

Look at it this way. You have to resolve it all at once, so you don't have "DR 16 and DR 2" -- you have "DR 18, 16 of which happens to be flexible." So when you fall on your skull and take 15 points of damage, 2 damage is stopped by your innate DR and 13 from your flexible DR. Thus, you'd take (13/5) = 2 points of injury to the skull. If you'd been injured anywhere else, all 15 points would've been stopped by flexible DR, so you'd take (15/5) = 3 points of injury to that hit location.


You missed the line on p. B379 under Wounding Modifiers and Injury: "Note that blunt trauma injury has no wounding modifier." Wounding modifiers are applied to penetrating damage, not to injury. Blunt trauma is the latter -- it just comes right off your HP as-is.


Yes, exactly.
You forgot that falling damage always treats any DR, flexible or not, as if it were flexible for blunt trauma. Also, the helmet is unlikely to be flexible DR.
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Old 09-07-2010, 11:42 AM   #14
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Default Re: Blunt Trauma and Skulls

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Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk View Post
This is my understanding as well. You don't do stuff a layer at a time, you add all the DR and resolve it, barring different types of DR (flexible or non, although that doesn't matter in the case of falls).
Well, yes it does, because the skull DR is innate and therefore not flexible for the purpose of falls.

So really, you should subtract the non-flexible DR first, reducing 15 to 13, which is then fully stopped by the helmet and results in 2 points of blunt trauma, with no wounding modifier since it is, after all, blunt trauma.
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Old 09-07-2010, 11:44 AM   #15
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Default Re: Blunt Trauma and Skulls

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Originally Posted by Langy View Post
You forgot that falling damage always treats any DR, flexible or not, as if it were flexible for blunt trauma. Also, the helmet is unlikely to be flexible DR.
Not innate DR, though. If your skull is not innate, you're a funny guy.
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Old 09-07-2010, 12:57 PM   #16
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Default Re: Blunt Trauma and Skulls

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Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty View Post
You missed the line on p. B379 under Wounding Modifiers and Injury: "Note that blunt trauma injury has no wounding modifier."
Thought I'd read it somewhere but couldn't find it again, TQ.

Bit confused by the idea of applying innate DR before worn DR. Should rigid DR always be counted before flexible? Or is that simply a way of figuring this singular conundrum?
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Old 09-07-2010, 01:23 PM   #17
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Default Re: Blunt Trauma and Skulls

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Originally Posted by jacobmuller View Post
Thought I'd read it somewhere but couldn't find it again, TQ.

Bit confused by the idea of applying innate DR before worn DR. Should rigid DR always be counted before flexible? Or is that simply a way of figuring this singular conundrum?
Probably always, otherwise it's too easy to buy a few points of rigid DR layered beneath your flexible DR such that you never actually suffer the effects of the Flexible limitation.
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Old 09-07-2010, 01:41 PM   #18
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Default Re: Blunt Trauma and Skulls

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Originally Posted by B379
If you layer other DR over flexible DR, only damage that penetrates the outer layer can inflict blunt trauma.
That seems to suggest that the order is indeed important.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty View Post
So when you fall on your skull and take 15 points of damage, 2 damage is stopped by your innate DR and 13 from your flexible DR. Thus, you'd take (13/5) = 2 points of injury to the skull.
If I undestand you correctly, you're choosing which DR stops the damage, and choose the most friendly version for the "damagee", independent of the layering.

How about I combine DR 10 (flexible) with DR 10 (innate, ablative, not flexible). The layering can be either way. Now I receive 10 points of damage. Under your assumptions, can I choose to have the flexible armor stop the damage and take 1 point of blunt trauma? Or should the non-flexible ablative DR stop it and I take effectively 10 points of damage? Can I decide on each blow what I like best?

Now, this isn't simplified by the weird behaviour of blunt trauma when you penetrate the DR. I would completely get rid of that non-continuity at a slight overhead of having to calculate 10% or 20% once in a while for the people with lots of flexible DR ... Then you could actually do layering with the following natural algorithm:

Determine DAMAGE.
Set BLUNTTRAUMA = 0.
Go through the DR layers, outer to inner:
- If not flexible, subract DR from DAMAGE, and remaining from BLUNTTRAUMA. (The order is important.)
- If flexible, stop only DAMAGE equal to DR, and add 10% (or 20% for cr.) of the stopped damage to BLUNTTRAUMA.
Apply BLUNTTRAUMA as injury, and DAMAGE with the appropriate wounding modifier.

Effects:
* No weird non-continuity.

* Blunt trauma can occur as under RAW.

* Non-flexible armor on top works as in RAW.

* A+B+C+D layered flexible armor is the same as one piece of (A+B+C+D) armor.

* Blunt trauma from flexible armor on top can be stoppped by non-flexible armor below, but only if the non-flexible armor is _not_ penetrated.

* Lots of blunt trauma can accumulate through multiple layers of flexible and non-flexible armor, if you mix and match small layers.

* It is not the same as choosing your order to suit you best (that's what your equipment section on the character sheet is for).

* In many cases this behaves as simple as counting non-flexible at 100% and non-flexible at 80% (cr) or 90% (other) effectiveness, in particular, this is always the case when the entire DR is penetrated.

Applied to the skull example: 15 DAMAGE stopped by helmet, that's 1.5 BLUNTTRAUMA, that will be completely stopped by the DR 2 of the skull. If he had a DR 10 helmet, the skull would stop 2 more DAMAGE and the person would take 3 DAMAGE to skull at x4 wounding modifier plus 2 BLUNTTRAUMA at x1.

All that this is saying: To stop blunt trauma, have 1 additional DR of non-flexible armor below each 5 DR of flexible armor. A light tin can should do. Doing it the other way round and letting the sword/pullet/etc pierce the tin can, will cause blunt trauma, even if you have enough flexible DR below to stop the attack.

Well, I like it.
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Old 09-07-2010, 01:50 PM   #19
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Default Re: Blunt Trauma and Skulls

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Originally Posted by vitruvian View Post
Not innate DR, though. If your skull is not innate, you're a funny guy.

Ah. Never noticed that innate DR isn't counted as flexible for blunt trauma rules. I wonder why not?
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Old 09-07-2010, 01:50 PM   #20
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Default Re: Blunt Trauma and Skulls

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Originally Posted by vitruvian View Post
Probably always, otherwise it's too easy to buy a few points of rigid DR layered beneath your flexible DR such that you never actually suffer the effects of the Flexible limitation.
Flexible is only a -20%. If you buy 20% additional non-flexible DR to make up for the flexible limitation against cr damage, this comes out to exactly 0 gain. You have a slight 10% discounst against non-cr attacks, though, if your DM approves ... Not really game-breaking, I would say.

Of course, against no-blunt-trauma attacks like laser weapons, flexible is even a free -20%, and no one seems to complain that much about it ...

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