Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-13-2019, 10:22 PM   #1
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Diffuse/Shadow Form and cover DR.

Page 408's rules for Overpenetration include contributions to cover DR:
HP (for flesh)
1/2 HP (for a machine, vehicle, or other Unliving target)
1/4 HP (for a Homogenous object)

This is a realistic-sounding tradeoff because Unliving targets take ~1/2 from piercing/impaling while Homogenous takes ~1/4 from piercing/impaling.

These (and other) physical attacks do half damage to someone with Shadow Form, and even less (if non-AE) to someone who's Diffuse.

Do they still have full HP toward their cover DR in spite of that? Body of Air (20 HP) requires 21+ damage to hit someone behind you even though you only suffer a maximum of 2?

Last edited by Plane; 01-13-2019 at 10:29 PM.
Plane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2019, 02:38 AM   #2
Anthony
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
Default Re: Diffuse/Shadow Form and cover DR.

I would assume the damage cap is also the cover DR.
__________________
My GURPS site and Blog.
Anthony is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2019, 04:46 AM   #3
Aldric
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Default Re: Diffuse/Shadow Form and cover DR.

While I can't find a relevant rule, I would assume a diffuse body would not offer much protection to those behind it
Aldric is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2019, 08:57 AM   #4
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: Diffuse/Shadow Form and cover DR.

I assume Insubstantiality normally wouldn't provide cover DR, but since they do take damage (same as Shadow Form) from attacks with the Illusory Form limitation (Fantasy 128 says Illusionary Form) I'm wondering if creatures like the Faerie (Fantasy 108) could provide Cover DR.

Powers 53 has the "Swarm" modifier for Diffuse where only Area/Cone/Explosions can injure you. It says after "Otherwise, treat this state as Insubstantiality" so maybe that means it doesn't provide cover DR except possibly against ACE attacks which can injure them?

If that's the case, instead of full HP, would it be fair to say that it only provides cover in proportion to blanketed area? Like they take 5% damage if spread over 20 hexes, so should their cover DR basically just be 5% of their HP?
Plane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2019, 11:17 PM   #5
Hide
 
Hide's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Default Re: Diffuse/Shadow Form and cover DR.

Are you wondering if taking cover behind a diffuse object (body of air, shadows, etc.) gives you "very good passive DR"? If you meant that, I wouldn’t agree.

IMO, using diffuse objects as passive cover to attain DR is not reliable, unless it features DR compatible with its “pseudo-physical-form” (i.e. a force field).

For example, “body of bees” provides a creature with a body which is harder to injure; the creature may parry or block the attack using a sacrificial parry or block maneuver to help you (but that is all). If you stand in the trajectory of a punch, the bees shall spread around it, and you will get hurt. The same goes for a body of (diffuse) shadows, flames, water, etc. If the damage was enough to injure the diffuse creature, it might as well hurt both of you.

Maybe, I could allow the diffuse object to absorb damage when the attack is based on its counter-element (i.e. water attack against fire body, vacuum attack against air, light attack against shadows, etc.). Thus taking into play your idea of providing a certain amount of DR.

And finally, if the body of shadows was not diffuse (& not against light-based attacks), I would split half of the damage between the shadow-form creature and the guy covered by the shadow-form creature.
__________________
- Hide
Hide is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2019, 01:55 AM   #6
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: Diffuse/Shadow Form and cover DR.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hide View Post
Are you wondering if taking cover behind a diffuse object (body of air, shadows, etc.) gives you "very good passive DR"? If you meant that, I wouldn’t agree.

IMO, using diffuse objects as passive cover to attain DR is not reliable, unless it features DR compatible with its “pseudo-physical-form” (i.e. a force field).
Conceptually, it doesn't seem reliable, but I'm talking about in accordance with the written rule, which doesn't appear to reduce Cover DR for Diffuse things like it does for Unliving/Homogenous.
Plane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2019, 11:21 AM   #7
Hide
 
Hide's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Default Re: Diffuse/Shadow Form and cover DR.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
Conceptually, it doesn't seem reliable, but I'm talking about in accordance with the written rule, which doesn't appear to reduce Cover DR for Diffuse things like it does for Unliving/Homogenous.
Indeed! However, "diffuse" is an injury modifier, not a DR modifier. Therefore, if cover DR for diffuse objects is not included on RAW 408, then diffuse objects most likely lack cover DR.

On second thought, a diffuse target could (maybe, at most) give you 2 HP of “cover DR”, provided that’s the amount of damage a diffuse target can receive (i.e. absorb) from non area-effect-cone-explosion attacks. Here I am stretching the "Injury to Unliving, Homogenous, and Diffuse Targets" from RAW 380.

My exception would be shadow-form (non-diffuse), because IMO that’s a physical creature with a “proto-injury modifier”. It is a thin layer of cover DR providing you with half flesh HP for the matter of calculating over-penetration and it can absorb up to half the original damage.
__________________
- Hide

Last edited by Hide; 01-15-2019 at 11:28 AM.
Hide is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2019, 11:45 AM   #8
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: Diffuse/Shadow Form and cover DR.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hide View Post
if cover DR for diffuse objects is not included on RAW 408, then diffuse objects most likely lack cover DR.
B262 gives IT:Diffuse to Body of Earth (your body is sand or earth) and Body of Water, so I'd think that it would provide some cover. They don't get a +10 to HP like Body of Air and Body of Fire do, so if it were based on a % of HP, somehow Air would come ahead.

IT:Homogenous is used for Body of Ice/Metal/Stone so they would get 1/4 their HP as cover DR.

It feels like maybe Earth/Water should come ahead of Fire/Air in terms of stopping power but I'm not sure how to justify it.
Plane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2019, 02:21 PM   #9
Hide
 
Hide's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Default Re: Diffuse/Shadow Form and cover DR.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
B262 gives IT:Diffuse to Body of Earth (your body is sand or earth) and Body of Water, so I'd think that it would provide some cover. They don't get a +10 to HP like Body of Air and Body of Fire do, so if it were based on a % of HP, somehow Air would come ahead.

IT:Homogenous is used for Body of Ice/Metal/Stone so they would get 1/4 their HP as cover DR.

It feels like maybe Earth/Water should come ahead of Fire/Air in terms of stopping power but I'm not sure how to justify it.
Body of air/fire have +10 HP, because -10 ST reduces HP to 0. So, since (mechanically) the creatures shouldn’t have 0 HP, the meta-trait provides them with +10 HP.

In other words, a creature made of air/fire has 10 HP (not 20), and this is a compensation for lacking ST.

On the other hand, bodies of earth/water lack +10 HP, because these meta-traits do not have -10 ST.

Body of earth (meta-trait) features 2 DR, so it could add to the 2 HP of damage a diffuse creature can take as per RAW 380.

I would say a human sized body of air, is not enough to impede your actions (as in my previous paragraph) and does not provide cover DR because it is not “hard enough” (not flesh, metal, stone, etc.). The creature itself could defend you with a maneuver, but not passively. It could also provide you with its diffuse property if it had “affects others”.

The injury modifiers only apply to injury against the bodies provided with them; it means the body of a creature made of a diffuse element won’t have diffuse cover DR (because it does not exist, AFAIK).

If the creature is made of an element which has a cover DR score (ice, metal, stone, etc.), then cover DR might apply.

If diffuse passive cover could provide cover DR, then it would be a big issue fighting in our atmosphere (because we are surrounded by a very large body air), under the rain, etc.

You could argue you cannot strike properly while inside water, sand, mud, etc. but that’s another situation, because here, you are surrounded by the element in enough amount to impede most of your actions (also consider size modifier, i.e. pool of water). A GURPS 3e book, Trans-human Space: Under Pressure (p.53), elaborates on underwater combat; damage is reduced to 1/3, 1/2 or 2/3 depending on the melee attack. But that’s another dynamic.
__________________
- Hide

Last edited by Hide; 01-15-2019 at 02:25 PM.
Hide is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2019, 11:48 PM   #10
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: Diffuse/Shadow Form and cover DR.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hide View Post
Body of air/fire have +10 HP, because -10 ST reduces HP to 0. So, since (mechanically) the creatures shouldn’t have 0 HP, the meta-trait provides them with +10 HP.
Right, I overlooked that :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hide View Post
Body of earth (meta-trait) features 2 DR, so it could add to the 2 HP of damage a diffuse creature can take as per RAW 380.
If you have 10 HP and 2 DR your cover DR is 12, I think. I like the injury cap being the cover cap, just can't find it in book.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hide View Post
I would say a human sized body of air, is not enough to impede your actions (as in my previous paragraph) and does not provide cover DR because it is not “hard enough” (not flesh, metal, stone, etc.).
How would you set it apart statistically from Body of Water which also lacks DR?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hide View Post
The injury modifiers only apply to injury against the bodies provided with them; it means the body of a creature made of a diffuse element won’t have diffuse cover DR (because it does not exist, AFAIK).
I think no matter what you would always add DR if they had it. A fire elemental should provide its 10 DR as cover against fire attacks, as an example, and an earth elemental should provide its 2 DR (hadn't noticed that, didn't stand out due to line split) too.

The issue might be that HP doesn't apply toward it though, which sounds sad for the Air/Water elementals. We know water can slow down bullets and I would figure that someone throwing a fireball through a water elemental at you should diminish it at least by 1.
Plane is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:28 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.