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Old 01-13-2019, 09:12 AM   #21
hal
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Buffalo, New York
Default Re: How to Finance Slow and Sure Enchanting

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Originally Posted by Rupert View Post
Magic 4e, p.12, in the box "Ceremonial Magic", grants the ability to trade energy for skill. P.17 notes that you can do this when enchanting, as enchanting is a form of ceremonial magic.
Whereas GURPS MAGIC for 4e implies it - GURPS MAGIC 2nd edition (ie GURPS CLASSIC MAGIC) spells it out clearly.

Even despite it being clearly spelled out, people still didn't take much more of it. The income derived from the sale of magic items was standardized based (if I recall correctly) on how long it took a skill 15 mage to make a power 15 item. That it takes a skill 12 mage 60% longer to make didn't mean he'd be able to charge 60% more for the work (unless he was the only supplier).

So yes, enchantment is ceremonial casting, and yes, GURPS 3e spelled it out. 4e doesn't. 3e has at least three supporting areas that it spells it out specifically, 4e doesn't seem to.
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Old 01-13-2019, 10:03 AM   #22
Fred Brackin
 
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Default Re: How to Finance Slow and Sure Enchanting

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Originally Posted by Rupert View Post
Do you have a reference for this? I can only find rules for Low Mana (M17), which apparently doesn't affect your skill when determining the power of an item made in a Low Mana zone. Which makes sense because otherwise you'd be getting penalised twice.
I think he might be talking about some sort of House Rule. Enchanting in High Mana boosts neither Power nor Skill unless perhaps you're using Continuous Mana from Thaumatology.

If a team with Skill-15 Enchanted an item in Low Mana it wouldn't work in Low Mana but it might start working if you took it to a Normal Mana area.
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Old 01-13-2019, 12:15 PM   #23
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Default Re: How to Finance Slow and Sure Enchanting

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Originally Posted by hal View Post
Whereas GURPS MAGIC for 4e implies it - GURPS MAGIC 2nd edition (ie GURPS CLASSIC MAGIC) spells it out clearly.

Even despite it being clearly spelled out, people still didn't take much more of it. The income derived from the sale of magic items was standardized based (if I recall correctly) on how long it took a skill 15 mage to make a power 15 item. That it takes a skill 12 mage 60% longer to make didn't mean he'd be able to charge 60% more for the work (unless he was the only supplier).

So yes, enchantment is ceremonial casting, and yes, GURPS 3e spelled it out. 4e doesn't. 3e has at least three supporting areas that it spells it out specifically, 4e doesn't seem to.
What this rule suggests is that a Skill-15 mage doing enchanting should command about 1.5 - 2 times the income of a Skill-12 mage, and a Skill-20 mage might command about three times a skill-15 mage. This is very roughly consistent with +1 Status/wealth per step, if we assume a Skill-12 enchanter is Status-0 (and not the Skill-15 mage as Magic has always assumed, and which most people find silly).
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Old 01-13-2019, 03:27 PM   #24
hal
 
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Default Re: How to Finance Slow and Sure Enchanting

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What this rule suggests is that a Skill-15 mage doing enchanting should command about 1.5 - 2 times the income of a Skill-12 mage, and a Skill-20 mage might command about three times a skill-15 mage. This is very roughly consistent with +1 Status/wealth per step, if we assume a Skill-12 enchanter is Status-0 (and not the Skill-15 mage as Magic has always assumed, and which most people find silly).
It does make one curious however...

How long will it take for a mage with Enchant 12 and say, Ignite Fire at 12 - before his skill due to enchanting (on the job training) reaches skill level 15.
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Old 01-13-2019, 06:29 PM   #25
Fred Brackin
 
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Default Re: How to Finance Slow and Sure Enchanting

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It does make one curious however...

How long will it take for a mage with Enchant 12 and say, Ignite Fire at 12 - before his skill due to enchanting (on the job training) reaches skill level 15.
Assuming he started with 1 pt in each he needs 7 more to rise from 12 to 15. OJT divded equally between Enchant and the other spell that 1400 days. If he had 2 pts in Enchant it's 10 pts for that.

This assumes that the "Trading Energy for Skill" dodge works for a Skill-12 Enchnter and my reading is that it would not.

My 1st ed/1st priting copy of Magic for 3e says in the third paragraph under "Enchanting: Creating a Magic Item" that the Enchanter and all assistants must _know_ both Enchant and the spell being put into the item at 15 or higher. Not "be able to cast the spells at an effective level of 15" or other such phrasing.

"Energy for Skill" would come into effect for Enchnating _after_ you knew it at level 15.
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Old 01-13-2019, 06:59 PM   #26
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Default Re: How to Finance Slow and Sure Enchanting

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It does make one curious however...

How long will it take for a mage with Enchant 12 and say, Ignite Fire at 12 - before his skill due to enchanting (on the job training) reaches skill level 15.
On the job training takes 800 hours per point. An 8-hour day makes this 100 days.

Assuming Enchant has two points in it to start (it's a Very Hard spell), and the other spell has one, level 13 takes 3 points, level 14 takes 6 points, and level 15 8 points, for a total of 17 points or 1700 days of enchanting. Assuming that the mage works in solid lumps of time on a job, and then takes time off equal to the missed weekends, and has a few weeks of annual leave as well, and thus works for 250 days a year, that's 6.8 years.

After that point, if the enchanter only bothers raising non-enchant spells from 12 to 15, they can raise one per 2.8 years.

If they decide to raise Enchant to 20 instead, that will take another 8 years, 16 if they raise their 'other' spell at the same time.

So, if an enchanter concentrates on just one item, in about 23 years they can go from a skill-12 apprentice/journeyman to a skill-20 master.


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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
My 1st ed/1st priting copy of Magic for 3e says in the third paragraph under "Enchanting: Creating a Magic Item" that the Enchanter and all assistants must _know_ both Enchant and the spell being put into the item at 15 or higher. Not "be able to cast the spells at an effective level of 15" or other such phrasing.

"Energy for Skill" would come into effect for Enchnating _after_ you knew it at level 15.
Magic for 4e says (p.16):
Quote:
Lone enchanters cannot gain a skill bonus for using extra energy. To perform enchantments, the caster and any assistants must know both the Enchant spell and the specific spell being put on the item at an effective skill of 15 or better.
So, if the enchanter was working alone, they would need skill-15 in Enchant and the other spell. Working with an assistant, they would be able to convert time into power, and the extra power into skill.
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Old 01-13-2019, 07:08 PM   #27
hal
 
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Default Re: How to Finance Slow and Sure Enchanting

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
Assuming he started with 1 pt in each he needs 7 more to rise from 12 to 15. OJT divded equally between Enchant and the other spell that 1400 days. If he had 2 pts in Enchant it's 10 pts for that.

This assumes that the "Trading Energy for Skill" dodge works for a Skill-12 Enchnter and my reading is that it would not.

My 1st ed/1st priting copy of Magic for 3e says in the third paragraph under "Enchanting: Creating a Magic Item" that the Enchanter and all assistants must _know_ both Enchant and the spell being put into the item at 15 or higher. Not "be able to cast the spells at an effective level of 15" or other such phrasing.

"Energy for Skill" would come into effect for Enchnating _after_ you knew it at level 15.
I'm going to split this off into a new thread - as it may be deemed as derailing the original poster's thread...
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Old 01-13-2019, 07:24 PM   #28
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Default Re: How to Finance Slow and Sure Enchanting

The Slow and Sure method really needs some Speedy Enchantment Perks on multiple people to even consider doing it ever. In fact, I'd say it also needs to give special bonuses to the item that isn't possible from Quick and Dirty Enchantment.
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Old 01-13-2019, 07:54 PM   #29
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Default Re: How to Finance Slow and Sure Enchanting

Follow-up: You also are going to need Luck, or at the very least, the Stabilizing Skill Perk, because you will critically fail occasionally.
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Old 01-13-2019, 10:09 PM   #30
hal
 
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Default Re: How to Finance Slow and Sure Enchanting

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Follow-up: You also are going to need Luck, or at the very least, the Stabilizing Skill Perk, because you will critically fail occasionally.
Luck is specifically not allowed to affect enchantments. 'tis sad, but true.

Note however, that Stable Casting (+40%) can affect enchantments based on the observation that allowing that in the game may drastically lower powerstone costs due to crit failures being avoided.

Note this fun thing however...

"Ceremonial spellcasting normally requires at least two participants. (Enchanting is an exception.) This enhancement lets you cast spells ceremonially all by yourself."

Note that the enchanting process is excepted from the limitation on ceremonial casting.

Now for the fun part if you will...

Those who are familiar with GURPS 3e, would note that in GURPS CLASSIC MAGIC, there were TWO methods for engaging in the casting of Ceremonial Magic. Before I go into that, it should be noted that Ceremonial Casting of spells has a requirement - that the caster takes 10x longer in the spell casting, and that the caster must have assistants.

What wasn't perhaps noted in its entirety is this...

The two methods are:

Circle.
Spectators.

Note the oddity of the word plus a period. That was intentional on my part, because that is precisely how it was set forth in GURPS MAGIC for 3e. You either engaged in Ceremonial spell casting with a circle of mages who were required to know the spell at 15+ to participate...

or

You had to have spectators supplying you with energy.

Nothing forbade a mage from using BOTH methods at the same time - but a Solitary Mage using say, 32 spectators, could cast a spell that required 20 energy - as though he had a skill +3 for that 20 point spell (ie 1.6 x energy for the +3 bonus of skill for energy).

The newer version of GURPS MAGIC did away with that definition. Why? <shrug> can't say.

The reality is - the rules for ceremonial spell casting changed drastically between editions, and people can either use the rules as written, use the older rules as written, or modify the rules using the rules for 3e in lieu of 4e where Magic is concerned in certain aspects.

The use of 1 mage provides 1 mage-day of labor per day of enchantment is a function of the rules as written. Advice on how to modify the rules as written to customize GURPS MAGIC would seem to imply that the GM can go with other options.

That is largely what the original poster seems to have intended by opening this thread - or perhaps it derailed a bit from his original intention.
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