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Old 01-12-2019, 09:13 PM   #11
Rupert
 
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Default Re: How to Finance Slow and Sure Enchanting

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
You might pay extra for a Skill-16 item if the Spell is Resisted but mny of the items that enhance the abilities of the user don't even make rolls resisted or not.
If the spell is resisted and you want to cast it at any sort of range, you want as much Power in the item as you can get.

Quote:
Originally Posted by a humble lich View Post
Second Slow and Sure enchanting doesn't actually require the enchanters work 7 days a week, it just takes longer if the enchanters take days off. "If a day’s work is skipped or interrupted, it takes two days to make it up." That means that it is quite possible to have the enchanters take a small amount of time off; say one day off a week will make the project take 14% longer but make the enchanters much happier.
Actually, it will take ~29% longer. If one day in seven is taken off, that means you have to spend another two days to make that up, so that's nine days to do seven days' work.

The real issue with S&S, however, is that every mage involved must be there for each day of work. That makes long S&S projects very vulnerable to disruption or outright cancellation by sickness or misadventure.
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Old 01-12-2019, 10:15 PM   #12
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Default Re: How to Finance Slow and Sure Enchanting

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Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
A recent thread got me thinking about the difficulties of slow and sure enchantment, specifically how to finance an item that takes a long time to make, and how to entice mages to work on year-long or longer projects that really don't allow for days off.
I solved the problem by allowing them days off. /dusts hands moves on...


Oh, you want more details? Simply, I allow other mages to take over*. By working as a team a group of mages (and apprentices) can work on a project, switching in and out. The project might not ever take a break, but if the mages can switch in and out, it eliminates all the problems the guy in the other thread had with the idea of "spending 6 years on enchanting".


* As long as they understand the project, have the requisite spells, and worked on the project prior to to the break takers leaving it. This only applied to "Lead Enchanters", I didn't have any such requirements for the apprentices†.

† I had other rules for the apprentices, but i don't have them on hand at the moment.
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Old 01-12-2019, 11:14 PM   #13
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Default Re: How to Finance Slow and Sure Enchanting

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Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
I solved the problem by allowing them days off. /dusts hands moves on...

Oh, you want more details? Simply, I allow other mages to take over*.
Thats one of the methods I use.
Under Enchantment it says it uses the rules for Ceremonial magic (Magic, p. 12). The Ceremonial casting says once the spell is cast you can swap out assistants.
and under S&S it says "All of the caster’s assistants must be
present every day. If a day’s work is
skipped or interrupted, it takes two
days to make it up. Loss of a mage
ends the project!"


So if you interpret (or change) the enchanting process to be more of a maintenance or each day is a separate but partial casting (ie building the enchantment brick by brick) you can swap out assistants as needed as long as they have the requisite skills.
To require the exact same group for long enchantments makes this work require more skills and advantages than any other project it makes it extremely vulnerable to attack or interference, much less simple accidents.
So it seems reasonable, unless you want magic items to be extremely rare or low power.

I also allow mages to contribute up to their levels in Magery per day.
Higher power mages can get paid more since they effectively count as multiple people.
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Old 01-12-2019, 11:42 PM   #14
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Default Re: How to Finance Slow and Sure Enchanting

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Originally Posted by a humble lich View Post
A similar model would be a local lord captures enchanters and uses them as slaves. Now the lord does not have to pay them or give them days off. However, their productivity most likely won't be as good as free enchanters, and keeping powerful mages as slaves without them running away would be a feat.
The Enslave spell and the double cost version of the Wraith spell would both solve those problems.
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Old 01-13-2019, 12:19 AM   #15
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Default Re: How to Finance Slow and Sure Enchanting

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
There is another issue with S&S though it tends to be a technical rules issue. This is with the Power of the enchanted item and the supposed normality of Power 15 for items.

All Q&D items will be done at Power 15 due to factors inherent to the proceedure. S&S is different though. There's relatively little advantage to doing S&S in 6 man teams. Even if you do it should be with 6 guys at Skill-15 with no Skill-20 Master in sight.

The Skill-20 guy should be doing S&S by himself to produce Skill-20 items that he can (according to the rules) sell for a premium. The advantage of having a Skill-20 item looks a little theoretical to me. As an example, Yrth has very large areas with Normal Mana. If your Skill-15 item won't work if you go from Megalos to Caithness that is but one more reason to not go to Caithness. Megalans or even Cardiens already have many of those.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rupert View Post
If the spell is resisted and you want to cast it at any sort of range, you want as much Power in the item as you can get.
You solve this by casting in a high or very high mana area, it's a footnote in the rules but those areas don't provide a bonus to skill when enchanting but rather a bonus to final item Power.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
The big problems with S&S are that it requires 7 days a week, and there's no way a skill that requires Magery 2, at least one Hard spell at 15, at least one VH spell at 15, and at least 9 other spells is an Average job.
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Originally Posted by a humble lich View Post
First, I agree that the job of enchanter should pay much more than what is listed in magic. Quick and Dirty enchanters are also underpaid given their qualifications and the fact that they have to literally work to the point of collapse several times a day.
I dealt with this by assuming that that GURPS $ correspond to USD at a 1:1 ratio and then having enchanters charge $50 an hour, and that figure is probably low.

Quote:
Originally Posted by a humble lich View Post
Second Slow and Sure enchanting doesn't actually require the enchanters work 7 days a week, it just takes longer if the enchanters take days off. "If a day’s work is skipped or interrupted, it takes two days to make it up." That means that it is quite possible to have the enchanters take a small amount of time off; say one day off a week will make the project take 14% longer but make the enchanters much happier.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rupert View Post
Actually, it will take ~29% longer. If one day in seven is taken off, that means you have to spend another two days to make that up, so that's nine days to do seven days' work.
I'd prefer to do the math at how many days work they can get in a week, so for a 7 day week they manage to get 3 days work done.
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Old 01-13-2019, 01:12 AM   #16
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Default Re: How to Finance Slow and Sure Enchanting

One of the issues that came into being with the newer edition of GURPS MAGIC that was not present with GURPS MAGIC 2nd edition was that you could double the time to produce the item, and gain a +4 bonus to your effective skill. Or more.

The changing in wording was subtle, but 4e did make the change unfortunately.

GURPS CLASSIC MAGIC pg 21 sidebar has this to say...

"It should be noted that, even if the campaign is using total economic realism, it is easy to justify changes in the prices of some (or all) items. The price of a particular item can easily be halved if a local Circle has a lead enchanter of extraordinary skill. Or it could double if no local enchanter can make it without trading time and energy for skill."

page 15 says this:

"Extra energy gives a skill bonus as follows: +1 for 20% of extra energy, +2 for 40%, +3 for 60%, +4 for 100%, and an additional +1 for each additional 100% of the required energy. This method can also be used to make magical items (see Chapter 2) of increased Power."

In fact? This is the only way a mage with Enchantment 12 can make a magic item with power 15. If the item takes 20 days to make under normal circumstances, he'd have to spend 32 days Slow and Sure in order to have a power 15 item.

With the fact that they left those bits from Classic Magic out of Magic for 4e - it changed the whole complexion of the process. In my opinion, for the worse.

As for my own thoughts on the matter and allowing house rules to pervade the process?

Mages may take up to Magery-1 days off from the process without penalty. Mages who go beyond that point, roll against enchantment skill at a penalty equal to the days beyond the safe point. If successful, they resume enchantment. Fail, and they have lost double the time they went over (including the safe time). Crit fail, and they lose double the double, or 4x.

Frankly? The idea that a mage can spend 2,000 days non-stop on enchantments is largely bogus. Take a hard look at the people in your life and ask "Could you count on more than one finger, how many people have worked 2 years without calling in sick or being sick" The answer is likely no. That's only 700 some days, let alone 2,000.

In the end - the game is yours to do with as you see fit. If you don't like how long it takes for an item to be enchanted properly - either change the required energy (the author who wrote the book PROBABLY created those numbers by fiat).

You could even go so far as to say that a mage can put in as many mage days as Magery-1. This way, a Mage with Magery 2 can enchant an item, but it takes the normal time to enchant. A mage with Magery 3 can do the same enchantment in half the time. A mage with Magery 4 could do the same enchantment in 1/3rd the time.

So - have fun, experiment, and know that if the players wish they could continue to play with the house rule, you probably did something right for them.

Now, I'd best not bring up a pet peeve of mine where it comes to quirked powerstones...

;)
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Old 01-13-2019, 01:23 AM   #17
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Default Re: How to Finance Slow and Sure Enchanting

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Originally Posted by Andreas View Post
The Enslave spell and the double cost version of the Wraith spell would both solve those problems.
Imagine if you will, society starting off at TL 0. Imagine if you will, anyone with the magery talent is killed outright unless they are under the protection of the Tribal chief. The custom of the tribe is that all mageborn are slaves to the chief.

Fast forward a few centuries, and replace chief with King. Replace custom with laws (penalty of death kind of laws) where the King has a total monopoly on spell casters. Any mage who seeks to escape slavery in a neighboring kingdom may find itself invaded by the king who has mages as his personal slaves.

or, go one different route and imagine a society in which all children are forced to undergo a baptismal process in which the local population present at the child's baptism, are all supplying energy for a Greater Geas. The geas? To obey priests of a given social power or higher.

There are many ways to shape society differently if you assume magic as postulated in GURPS MAGIC (either of Classic or 4e version). Half the fun is deciding which spells are available and when. If writing hasn't been invented yet, then spells are only passed down orally. It also means that it is very difficult to research new spells. The Research rules in GURPS 4e make it impossible to create new spells without an enchanted library. This is definitely different than what was present in 3e.

So - never be afraid to go back an edition or two of GURPS MAGIC - you might find it suits your campaign better.
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Old 01-13-2019, 02:33 AM   #18
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Default Re: How to Finance Slow and Sure Enchanting

My preferred situation is "Here's the price of a magic item. There is no more need for detailed enchantment rules than any other sort of crafting."
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Old 01-13-2019, 08:28 AM   #19
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Default Re: How to Finance Slow and Sure Enchanting

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Originally Posted by scc View Post
You solve this by casting in a high or very high mana area, it's a footnote in the rules but those areas don't provide a bonus to skill when enchanting but rather a bonus to final item Power.
Do you have a reference for this? I can only find rules for Low Mana (M17), which apparently doesn't affect your skill when determining the power of an item made in a Low Mana zone. Which makes sense because otherwise you'd be getting penalised twice.
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Old 01-13-2019, 08:55 AM   #20
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Default Re: How to Finance Slow and Sure Enchanting

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Originally Posted by hal View Post
page 15 says this:

"Extra energy gives a skill bonus as follows: +1 for 20% of extra energy, +2 for 40%, +3 for 60%, +4 for 100%, and an additional +1 for each additional 100% of the required energy. This method can also be used to make magical items (see Chapter 2) of increased Power."

In fact? This is the only way a mage with Enchantment 12 can make a magic item with power 15. If the item takes 20 days to make under normal circumstances, he'd have to spend 32 days Slow and Sure in order to have a power 15 item.

With the fact that they left those bits from Classic Magic out of Magic for 4e - it changed the whole complexion of the process. In my opinion, for the worse.
Magic 4e, p.12, in the box "Ceremonial Magic", grants the ability to trade energy for skill. P.17 notes that you can do this when enchanting, as enchanting is a form of ceremonial magic.
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