Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > The Fantasy Trip

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-16-2018, 06:43 PM   #511
DouglasCole
Doctor of GURPS Ballistics
 
DouglasCole's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Burnsville, MN
Default Re: The Fantasy Trip

Subdual Damage in general is a bit of a crock anyway. If you were hitting somebody hard enough to knock them out or cause impairment, youíre doing the same thing as hitting them with a stick, just without the lever arm and increased force. I understand the game mechanical reasons for it, but itís not really a thing.Even the quick one punch knockoutís are knockouts because of brain trauma, not some sort of harmless off switch for people.
__________________
Gaming Ballistic, LLC: Home of Dragon Heresy, Hall of Judgment, and hand-made viking shields.

Live on Kickstarter: Four Perilous Journeys: New Adventures for The Fantasy Trip. Four 16-page adventures for TFT, written by David Pulver and the team of Christopher R. Rice and J. Edward Tremlett.
DouglasCole is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2018, 07:28 PM   #512
Rick_Smith
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Coquitlam B.C.
Default New TFT: Designer Notes.

Hi all,
Some people suggest that 'Designer Notes' are included in the base set of the new TFT. First I would like to say that I LIKE Designer Notes. As a professional game designer, I enjoy seeing inside the head of fellow workers.

However, I would far rather any designer notes are a free download at Warehouse 23, for the following reasons: First it would drive traffic to W23 and that is a good thing. Second, I would much rather that the physical books include rules and not secondary material. Third, as a digital download, the Designer Notes can be as long as you want. If put into the rule book, they would have to be very short.

Moving atoms is expensive. The designer notes are perfectly useful as a digital download. I would prefer that the atoms in the TFT package are for things like counters, GM shields, and the like.

Warm regards, Rick.
Rick_Smith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2018, 07:49 PM   #513
JLV
 
JLV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Far northern California
Default Re: The Fantasy Trip

I'm going to disagree with Rick on this one. I like hardcopy whenever I can get it. Oddly enough, it seems to last longer. However, having said that, I don't care much where it's put -- if it's a separate handout, fine. Back in the day, however, companies like the original SPI never counted it as part of the rules, nor did they apply some arbitrary page limit to their rules -- they were as long as they took, and "developer's" and "designer's" notes were simply added on to the back.

I sincerely hope the printing goal here is not based on some arbitrary page limit, because of which putting in Designer's Notes would somehow cause things that people need to play the game to be left out...
JLV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2018, 07:58 PM   #514
Rick_Smith
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Coquitlam B.C.
Default Subdual damage - realistic?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
Subdual Damage in general is a bit of a crock anyway. ...
Hi Douglas, everyone.
I have a talent called Koshing which allows you to 'kosh' someone (hit them on the head with a small sandbag) to knock them out. In the notes for this talent I specifically say that concussions do brain damage which can cause long term impairment. But this talent does a hollywood style kosh which does not cause any long term damage.

I actually agree with you about subdual damage. That said, I never worried about if the Subdual damage rules, on page 26 of Advanced Melee, were realistic. No harm was done to TFT by allowing non-lethal attacks. And bruises and muscle sprains will heal faster than broken bones and major cuts to tissue. People can beat up others deliberately trying not to break bones or cause deep cuts, of course.

The idea of subdual damage, nicely captures that idea.

Warm regards, Rick.
Rick_Smith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2018, 08:00 PM   #515
Shostak
 
Shostak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: New England
Default Re: The Fantasy Trip

I'll side wtith Rick. Spending money to put designer's notes on paper is probably not the best use of resources. I'd rather SJG put those resources toward materials that would keep TFT alive and in the market (not just GM screens and counters, though, but adventures, bestiaries, etc.)
Shostak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2018, 08:39 PM   #516
tbeard1999
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Tyler, Texas
Default Re: Hand To Hand combat - Rick's Thoughts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick_Smith View Post
Hi Everyone, Ty.
Not subdual damage? Subdual damage is hitting with the flat of your blade to stun someone. The weapon does half damage, but you can't kill them (unless you roll a double or triple damage). The purpose is to knock people out.

Recovering from a bad beating in (say) 3 hours seems pretty fast.

In my campaign, subdual damage recovers four times faster than normal damage, and subdual damage recovers first.

Warm regards, Rick.
Well, remember that this is an explicitly cinematic system. Also, I failed to mention that I ran a lot of city adventures. So barroom brawls were much more common than one might expect. Stun worked okay; all you had to do was throw some water on someone’s face and they woke up and recovered most of their points. Hey, it worked in the movies...

That said, subdual damage would be a perfectly good substitute.

The main goal was to enable bar fights to actually be fun and interesting in TFT. As noted, armor and the low amount of bare handed damage made such fights boring. By bumping the damage up and eliminating armor, fights could be resolved with ~3-4 solid punches.

This also allowed the occasional “lets settle this like men” duels that didn’t use weapons.
tbeard1999 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2018, 08:42 PM   #517
tbeard1999
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Tyler, Texas
Default Re: The Fantasy Trip

Agreed that designer’s notes are A Good Thing. I think Rick’s concern is that including them in the physical product might result in them being abbreviated for space considerations. If I have to choose, I’m like Rick - I’d much rather have extensive electronic designer’s notes than shorter, abbreviated printed ones.

Last edited by tbeard1999; 02-16-2018 at 09:34 PM.
tbeard1999 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2018, 03:04 PM   #518
Rick_Smith
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Coquitlam B.C.
Default Forgetting Talents --> Very gamey.

Hi all,
One thing that I thought was a bit charming about TFT was the ability of dragons to hypnotize you and make you forget talents. However, the fact that they could not do so in combat was lame.

I understand WHY the rules were written as they were. In TFT, an IQ 12 figure (fairly smart), might find their head filled up completely after they had learned 4 or 5 talents. There had to be ways to manage this very, very precious resource.

Strangely, natural talents generally took up far more memory (mIQ), than spells. Talents cost 1, 2 or 3 mIQ each, and were generally corequisites, (so if you had Master Naturalist, you had to pay for Naturalist as well). Where as spells were all 1 mIQ and series of them were prerequisites of each other, (so if you learned 3 hex Fire, you got 1 hex Fire for free).

Heroes had to pay triple for spells where as wizards had only pay double for talents.

Also several talents could be bought by wizards for the regular cost.

These rules disadvantaged heroes compared to wizards in pretty much every respect.

***

Getting back to my main subject, TFT also had rules for forgetting talents. If you don't use it for a year, you can free up that memory (mIQ).

I think that the new TFT should revise how talents work in several ways.

-- Talents should be cheaper. In particular I would allow very easy talents to be half a memory slot. In GURPS 4th edition, you got rid of 1/2 character point talents, but in TFT where you have 10 or so mIQ for skills (as opposed to, say, 55 character points in GURPS), half slots makes more sense.

-- I think heroes should spend double for spells ---OR--- that wizards should spend triple for talents. Make it fair.

-- Series of talents should be prerequisites of each other like spells.

-- Some way should be made to allow figures to buy talents with experience. This will allow experienced heroes to have a reasonable number of skills. Also it will help reduce attribute bloat, as there are more things to spend exp on. (I allow figures to buy mIQ with experience, but other people have other solutions.)

-- If you keep the Dragon hypnotic ability, allow them to use it in combat. (Maybe in combat they have only time to make you temporarily forget a talent?)

Warm regards, Rick.

Last edited by Rick_Smith; 02-17-2018 at 03:11 PM. Reason: Reordered paragraphs to make argument clearer.
Rick_Smith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2018, 05:07 PM   #519
JLV
 
JLV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Far northern California
Default Re: Forgetting Talents --> Very gamey.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick_Smith View Post
-- Talents should be cheaper. In particular I would allow very easy talents to be half a memory slot. In GURPS 4th edition, you got rid of 1/2 character point talents, but in TFT where you have 10 or so mIQ for skills (as opposed to, say, 55 character points in GURPS), half slots makes more sense.
A simpler way would simply be to multiply the IQ to determine the number of IQ slots available for talents/spells.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick_Smith View Post
-- I think heroes should spend double for spells ---OR--- that wizards should spend triple for talents. Make it fair.
I disagree -- magic should be HARD for the layman to learn; and conversely, if someone is capable of handling magic they ought to find talents comparatively easier to acquire than a layman should to acquire magic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick_Smith View Post
-- Series of talents should be prerequisites of each other like spells.
Not sure what this is supposed to mean; many talents already have prerequisites, frequently tied to the skill they represent (e.g., you must have some kind of thrown weapon skill in order to be able to use THROWN WEAPONS; likewise, you can't gain UNARMED COMBAT III until you have already gained UNARMED COMBAT I and II).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick_Smith View Post
-- Some way should be made to allow figures to buy talents with experience. This will allow experienced heroes to have a reasonable number of skills. Also it will help reduce attribute bloat, as there are more things to spend exp on. (I allow figures to buy mIQ with experience, but other people have other solutions.)
Totally agree with this concept, though I don't understand why everyone wants to introduce unnecessary "middlemen" (such as mIQ or "Character Points") into what should be a straightforward and simple system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick_Smith View Post
-- If you keep the Dragon hypnotic ability, allow them to use it in combat. (Maybe in combat they have only time to make you temporarily forget a talent?)
This is an excellent idea, and still in keeping with the Silmarillion where I think the idea may have originated. In that story, the Dragon held the hero in play hypnotically while the Orcs finished looting the Elven fortress and taking the survivors off as slaves. However, I would argue that this trick would require the Dragon to take no other action while it held the character, and similarly, if it can make him/her forget something, that should probably be a multiple-turn action that allows the Dragon to do nothing else. Thus, it is best used (as in the book) when the Dragon has plenty of allies around to finish off everything else that the bad guys want to accomplish while the Dragon ties himself up stopping the most dangerous hero.
JLV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2018, 10:57 PM   #520
David Bofinger
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Sydney, Australia
Default Re: Forgetting Talents --> Very gamey.

In standard TFT talents are expensive (a character can't afford that many) and inelastic (a player can't choose to give up attributes for extra talents, save by increasing IQ). The main disadvantage of this is that it's hard to describe experienced characters from fantasy stories, e.g. Conan, without absurd attributes, in particular very high IQ.

There's one effect of limiting the supply of talents that is arguably an advantage. Because individual characters can't pick up all the talents that are required, they need to rely on other characters to cover their blindspots. That reduces the risk that other characters will have everything covered and some players will feel their character to be redundant. The cheaper you make buying talents, the more this effect is reduced.

Looking at the first and second paragraphs together, it's noticeable that many of the great heroes we want to model are people who worked alone (e.g. Conan) or in small parties (e.g. Fafhrd and Grey Mouser, Elric and Moonglum). In a small party the second paragraph isn't as big a deal. If your games typically have large parties the second paragraph deserves more thought.

The other issue with cheap talents is character diversity. If talents are expensive then players have to think carefully about which ones to buy and different players will hopefully make different decisions so characters differ from each other. Taking it to extremes, if talents become free then everyone buys all of them, all characters of a broad type at a given level of advancement are the same and we may as well be playing D&D. This would lose something precious from TFT.

On balance I think TFT is better with talents made more elastic. But there are issues to consider and there is such a thing as too cheap.
David Bofinger is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
in the labyrinth, melee, roleplaying, the fantasy trip, wizard

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:32 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.