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Old 03-02-2010, 09:26 AM   #11
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Default Re: DF: Power Ups at 400+ points

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Originally Posted by RedMattis View Post
The Warrior nears perfection and might gain a variant of Chi abilities, allowing him to empower his weapon and himself. [Chi?]
Or Imbuements, see also Pyramid #3/04: Magic on the Battlefield or even closer to DF: "The Mystic Knight"
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Old 03-02-2010, 09:49 AM   #12
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Default Re: DF: Power Ups at 400+ points

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First, if you're going to compare like skill levels skill 25 has defense 15, 13 with a -2 DA. Second, with a -4 DA that brings effective skill level to 11, the chances of actually hitting are only 62%, vs 84% chance of defending. That's a real hit probability of 10%...
Sorry I wasnt clear there, I meant AD 12 before the DA penalty

62% * 50% = (roughly) 30% not counting Crits.

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Skill 50 is an extreme silly example. That represents over 100 points in one skill; there are a LOT of things you can buy for over 100 points that represent some serious whoop-ass.
Yes, it was meant to be an extreme example of extreme skills :)

Sure there are other things you can buy, but that really wasnt what I was getting at.

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Skill 10 vs defense 13. Real hit probability 8%.

Skill 10 vs defense 8 (28 - 20). Real hit probability 36%.
I really hadnt assigned an AD for those examples, I was simply using them to show that in the very far field, DA becomes the dominant term over Hit location penalty.

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In every example you've cited, assuming same skill level for attack and defender, you're far better off going for a straight DA than an Eye Slit + DA. Yes, the chances of successfully performing an Eye attack are a little higher than if you'd started out with a Skill 15 and tried the same thing, but they're not that great a chance of success.
And that is a true statement, But an eye shot is ALWAYS going to be equal to 5 levels of DA, regardless of the skill of the Attacker the Defense involved.

In retrospect, I suppose that because it will always take place in that 3-18 spread, the hit location penalties are probably best left alone as the 5 levels of DA compared to Eye/Chinc in armor, will Always be enough to shift your position on the Curve signifigantly.

Oh well ....

With that in Mind Azinc, I guess there really needent BE an upper limit at all on ANY skill. Simply apply more challenging Modifiers for Non-Combat skills and Bump Up the AD on the other side of the Screen for combat skills.

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Last edited by Nymdok; 03-02-2010 at 09:53 AM.
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Old 03-02-2010, 10:36 AM   #13
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Default Re: DF: Power Ups at 400+ points

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Sorry I wasnt clear there, I meant AD 12 before the DA penalty

Why are you constantly measuring them against low skill opponents?

At high skill levels it is the relative difference between the two skills that matters the most, not so much their absolute level. If you keep measuring them against average opponents sure they stop being a challenge, but isn't that the point about being truly great, you don't have to worry about the mundane average problems?
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Old 03-02-2010, 10:41 AM   #14
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Default Re: DF: Power Ups at 400+ points

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Why are you constantly measuring them against low skill opponents?
Just to make the math easier :)

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Old 03-02-2010, 11:28 AM   #15
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Default Re: DF: Power Ups at 400+ points

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Sorry I wasnt clear there, I meant AD 12 before the DA penalty
As blacksmith said, if you have a skill level that much higher than your opponent, you should be slaughtering them. AD 12 represents skill 18 for the defender vs Skill 25 or the attacker. That's not a fair fight to begin with.

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And that is a true statement, But an eye shot is ALWAYS going to be equal to 5 levels of DA, regardless of the skill of the Attacker the Defense involved.
I don't see where that's a real problem. DA is meant to be a way of neutralizing high defenses using your own high skill. The higher your skill, the more it will matter, as it's effectiveness scales with skill level. The key here is that you should be facing your opponents with similarly high skill levels or you're going to cut through them like a hot knife through butter - which is rather the point of having a high skill level.
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Old 03-02-2010, 11:53 AM   #16
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Default Re: DF: Power Ups at 400+ points

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I'm now considering what are reasonable limits, are the DF1 templates+ DF3 power ups meant to limit the characters forever?
No . . . just until we release suitable splatbooks. :) Quite seriously, I can think of lots of soaks for points, well beyond anything in DF 1-10. However, we'll need time to write the books. Powers is your friend here, and can be used to create all kinds of totally impossible "epic" abilities. These would cost more points than spells or cinematic combat skills, but not cost FP or rely on skill rolls, and possibly create much more profound effects.
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Old 03-02-2010, 12:17 PM   #17
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Default Re: DF: Power Ups at 400+ points

I'm not worried about finding challenges, I think I've got that covered now. At any skill level I could arrange a certain TPK kill that gave the impression the PCs had a chance or, more usefully, an event that appeared to threaten TPK but which the PCs will probably survive.

On the other hand if the template limits are strictly enforced I'm not worried about finding new ways for the PCs to spend their points. Divine powers, Chi powers, magic powers - there are many exciting options.

I ask the question for two other reasons niche protection and variety versus specialization.

Niche protection

Dungeon Fantasy is all about niche protection. Without any limits the wizard will learn healing potentially invalidating the cleric and the Knight might increase his mobility until he's faster than the Swashbuckler (this latter almost happened in my game).

Are the limits on the Clerics IQ and Power Investiture meant to keep the Cleric from learning very powerful spells (at one point per spell)? The wizard can achieve Level ~29 (magery 6 and Int 25). But the cleric's template and power ups limit him to ~18.

Variety over specialization

Kromm has said that in his Fantasy campaign there were no limits but fighters limited themselves to level 25 because they found brawling, thrown weapons, power blow and other things more useful and interesting.

The limits of the published DF templates encourage sideways expansion over ever upwards. At first the knight in my group wanted more speed. Then he went for skill and then strength. In each case his min-maxing instincts inclined him to buy up to the limit and if there was no limit he might never have stopped. Thanks to the limits he has moved onto other things. Sword 25 and Targeted Attack Skull 21 is more interesting than Sword 26.

So as Dungeon Fantasy reaches 400 points and above. How do we ensure niche protection? And to what extent, if at all, should we limit specialization to encourage variety?
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Old 03-02-2010, 12:20 PM   #18
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Default Re: DF: Power Ups at 400+ points

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No [...] Quite seriously, I can think of lots of soaks for points
Does that mean a cleric can buy Power Investiture 6? Or would he be better to have some kind of Divine power made up by his infinitely creative Games Master?
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Old 03-02-2010, 12:22 PM   #19
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Default Re: DF: Power Ups at 400+ points

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Does that mean a cleric can buy Power Investiture 6? Or would he be better to have some kind of Divine power made up by his infinitely creative Games Master?
Which does the player find more desirable?

Neither would break your game, I think, so go with the one that makes it the most fun.
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Old 03-02-2010, 12:22 PM   #20
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Default Re: DF: Power Ups at 400+ points

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Niche protection

Dungeon Fantasy is all about niche protection. Without any limits the wizard will learn healing potentially invalidating the cleric and the Knight might increase his mobility until he's faster than the Swashbuckler (this latter almost happened in my game).
Then find thematic things to give them in their niche to soak up points.

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Kromm has said that in his Fantasy campaign there were no limits but fighters limited themselves to level 25 because they found brawling, thrown weapons, power blow and other things more useful and interesting.
Some of this is also about how you build the challanges. There are points were it is better to be sure you can make sure you can fight in more situations than being an absolute killer in one specific situation. Also if you freeze the skill level of the opponents then there will be a point of diminishing returns for skill level.
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