Force Entry skill and "ST checks"

GoblynByte · 11-12-2009, 06:18 PM

In the skill description for Force Entry it notes that development of the skill adds to your damage when trying to beat down a door. But it also mentions modifying your strength for associated ST checks. That brings up an interesting question. How do you do a ST check?

I mean, I know how to do an attribute check, but Strength has a greater potential of being much higher than DX and IQ. So Succeeding at a ST check is pretty darn easy for, say, a troll. And, obviously, it should be. Trolls are strong, after all. But there has to be a limit to what they can bash down via a ST check. So that leads to the 'real' question. What are the benchmarks for the penalties applied to a person's ST in relation to how difficult it is to knock in various door types?

Kromm · 11-12-2009, 06:25 PM

On ST rolls: You roll 3d vs. ST, as for any other score, but this almost never stands alone. Usually, you only ever roll ST in a Contest with somebody else's ST or an object's HT or HP, depending on what technique or rule you're using. Thus, Forced Entry effectively gives you a small bonus in certain Contests with inanimate objects.

PK · 11-12-2009, 06:26 PM

Doors and other barriers are generally labeled as "Requires ST-2 roll to force" or something similar. That's the sort of thing that Forced Entry helps with. And yes, an ogre with ST 22 will be able to easily force a door that requires a ST-8 roll, while a normal human wouldn't even have a chance. That's how it should work, which is why this sort of thing allows a roll against ST.

Also note that the rules for damaging objects (bending bars, etc.) found in Supers and DF call for a Quick Contest of ST (minus object's DR) vs. the object's HT. Again, a Forced Entry bonus would add to ST, here.

The Benj · 11-12-2009, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty

Doors and other barriers are generally labeled as "Requires ST-2 roll to force" or something similar.

Here in Australia we usually just shorten these labels to "Push" or "Pull"

:P

RyanW · 11-12-2009, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kromm

Usually, you only ever roll ST in a Contest with somebody else's ST or an object's HT or HP, depending on what technique or rule you're using.

Which, personally, I prefer to run as 3d*ST vs 3d*ST (or HP). Very unGURPSy, but simple.

Rules that call for a Contest of ST vs. anything but ST and HP are usually ignored. It makes no sense to me that Pixie wrestlers can't strangle one another or beat another Pixie's weapon aside.

Kromm · 11-12-2009, 08:03 PM

Well, that's what Extreme Scores (p. B349) is meant to address. I've always found it pretty easy to use in play, but YMMV.

RyanW · 11-12-2009, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kromm

Well, that's what Extreme Scores (p. B349) is meant to address. I've always found it pretty easy to use in play, but YMMV.

Yes, it is simple, but it also skews the results in a way that gets under my skin.

A ST 3 leprechaun is proportionately as strong to a ST 2 pixie as a ST 15 bruiser is to an average ST 10 person. With B349, it comes out equivalent to a ST 11 vs ST 10.

I've yet to find a perfect system*, and doubt one is possible. I'm a mathochist, so I'll keep trying.

* Perfect meaning that odds are based on proportional ST, math is quick and easy, and there aren't any glaring statistical quirks. A quirk of the system I proposed is that the odds of a tie changes somewhat awkwardly (12/8 is about three times as likely to tie than 11/7).

Anaraxes · 11-12-2009, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Here in Australia

"Push will get you anywhere, except through a door marked 'Pull'". Sometimes you need an IQ check to go along with the ST-2 check.

The Benj · 11-12-2009, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

"Push will get you anywhere, except through a door marked 'Pull'". Sometimes you need an IQ check to go along with the ST-2 check.

Uh, I mentioned Pull. What?

Phoenix_Dragon · 11-12-2009, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RyanW

A ST 3 leprechaun is proportionately as strong to a ST 2 pixie as a ST 15 bruiser is to an average ST 10 person. With B349, it comes out equivalent to a ST 11 vs ST 10.

That's why I tend to scale them directly like that (As it recommends to do with scores of 20+) for small numbers as well as large ones. Requires a tiny bit more math, but it seems more fair.

11-12-2009, 06:18 PM	#1
GoblynByte Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Dayton, OH	Force Entry skill and "ST checks" In the skill description for Force Entry it notes that development of the skill adds to your damage when trying to beat down a door. But it also mentions modifying your strength for associated ST checks. That brings up an interesting question. How do you do a ST check? I mean, I know how to do an attribute check, but Strength has a greater potential of being much higher than DX and IQ. So Succeeding at a ST check is pretty darn easy for, say, a troll. And, obviously, it should be. Trolls are strong, after all. But there has to be a limit to what they can bash down via a ST check. So that leads to the 'real' question. What are the benchmarks for the penalties applied to a person's ST in relation to how difficult it is to knock in various door types? __________________ A man said to the universe: "Sir I exist!" "However," replied the universe, "The fact has not created in me A sense of obligation."

11-12-2009, 06:25 PM	#2
Kromm *GURPS* Line Editor Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Montréal, Québec	Re: Force Entry skill and "ST checks" On ST rolls: You roll 3d vs. ST, as for any other score, but this almost never stands alone. Usually, you only ever roll ST in a Contest with somebody else's ST or an object's HT or HP, depending on what technique or rule you're using. Thus, Forced Entry effectively gives you a small bonus in certain Contests with inanimate objects. __________________ Sean "Dr. Kromm" Punch <kromm@sjgames.com> *GURPS* Line Editor, Steve Jackson Games My DreamWidth [Just *GURPS* News]

11-12-2009, 06:26 PM	#3
PK Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Dobbstown Sane Asylum	Re: Force Entry skill and "ST checks" Doors and other barriers are generally labeled as "Requires ST-2 roll to force" or something similar. That's the sort of thing that Forced Entry helps with. And yes, an ogre with ST 22 will be able to easily force a door that requires a ST-8 roll, while a normal human wouldn't even have a chance. That's how it should work, which is why this sort of thing allows a roll against ST. Also note that the rules for damaging objects (bending bars, etc.) found in Supers and DF call for a Quick Contest of ST (minus object's DR) vs. the object's HT. Again, a Forced Entry bonus would add to ST, here. __________________ Reverend Pee Kitty of the Order Malkavian-Dobbsian (Twitter) (LJ) MyGURPS: My house rules and *GURPS* resources. #SJGamesLive: I answered questions about *GURPS After the End* and more! {Watch Video} - {Read Transcript}

11-12-2009, 08:03 PM	#6
Kromm *GURPS* Line Editor Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Montréal, Québec	Re: Force Entry skill and "ST checks" Well, that's what Extreme Scores (p. B349) is meant to address. I've always found it pretty easy to use in play, but YMMV. __________________ Sean "Dr. Kromm" Punch <kromm@sjgames.com> *GURPS* Line Editor, Steve Jackson Games My DreamWidth [Just *GURPS* News]