Danger Sense in Dungeon Fantasy

[Diomedes]

Originally Posted by b-dog

So for 15 points a PC can check for all the tricks and traps in a dungeon. I think this advantage is way too powerful for it's price. It essentially ruins all of the tricks and traps and allows a PC with it to undemine any thinking or contemplation about what to do with items found.

Don't forget that Danger Sense isn't a sure thing. It involves a secret roll by the GM, and if if fails, the PC gets no benefit.

Note also that Bruno's example has multiple dangers, and even a successful roll won't specify what they are, or how many.

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by b-dog

So for 15 points a PC can check for all the tricks and traps in a dungeon. I think this advantage is way too powerful for it's price. It essentially ruins all of the tricks and traps and allows a PC with it to undemine any thinking or contemplation about what to do with items found.

I disagree. Dungeon Fantasy is the only genre this is at all an issue with. It is well priced for any genre that admits it exists, except DF. If you have such a problem with than the stand is either charge a UB for it effect the campain has on it. OR say it not available.

Another reason I disagree is it behaved exactly how Rogues with 'Find Traps' are normally handle in the same things. Rogue ARE mine sweepers like that. Even more so Spell-Thieves.

[Stegyre]

Originally Posted by b-dog

So for 15 points a PC can check for all the tricks and traps in a dungeon. I think this advantage is way too powerful for it's price. It essentially ruins all of the tricks and traps and allows a PC with it to undemine any thinking or contemplation about what to do with items found.

I would say, fair enough.

Fifteen points is actually quite a lot for an advantage. For that much, you could (literally, in GURPS) walk on water. (Walk on liquid, cost 15, B97.) So it should get you something, but it shouldn't be game breaking.

I'd propose that it works like this: DS warns you of imminent danger, not potential danger.

Thus,
(1) It is not an early warning system for your actions. If you go to pick up the trapped dagger, DS tells you nothing . . . until after you pick it up.
(2) It does warn you before the hidden assassin looses his bolt, but only barely -- again, when the danger goes from potential to actual, and the assassin's finger is triggering the release.
(3) It does warn you when someone else goes to pick up the trapped dagger, but again, only at the point when the danger has moved from potential to imminent. "Wait! Don't!" DS Savant calls out, but it's too late, as Moe has already pushed the lever. DS Savant gets a fraction of a second warning more than others might to respond to the danger, but not to prevent it from happening.

Those who want some prospect of detecting potential danger should pony up the extra 10 points for Precog.

How does that sound?

(EDIT: This does mean there are situations -- when the imminent danger is unavoidable -- that DS does you no good: the ceiling collapses the instant the trapped dagger is touched. TPK. Such is life. A perfect defense should cost an awful lot more than 15 points.)

[The Benj]

Originally Posted by Stegyre

I would say, fair enough.

Fifteen points is actually quite a lot for an advantage. For that much, you could (literally, in GURPS) walk on water. (Walk on liquid, cost 15, B97.) So it should get you something, but it shouldn't be game breaking.

I'd propose that it works like this: DS warns you of imminent danger, not potential danger.

Thus,
(1) It is not an early warning system for your actions. If you go to pick up the trapped dagger, DS tells you nothing . . . until after you pick it up.
(2) It does warn you before the hidden assassin looses his bolt, but only barely -- again, when the danger goes from potential to actual, and the assassin's finger is triggering the release.
(3) It does warn you when someone else goes to pick up the trapped dagger, but again, only at the point when the danger has moved from potential to imminent. "Wait! Don't!" DS Savant calls out, but it's too late, as Moe has already pushed the lever. DS Savant gets a fraction of a second warning more than others might to respond to the danger, but not to prevent it from happening.

Those who want some prospect of detecting potential danger should pony up the extra 10 points for Precog.

How does that sound?

Terrible. It should definitely warn you (assuming you succeed on the roll, of course) if your actions are going to lead directly to danger. If picking up that dagger will cause horrible death, you should get a bad feeling before you do. A bad feeling after you do is not Danger Sense, it's just regret. Everyone has that. :)

[Captain-Captain]

The problem with the "It's always on till you leave the dungeon" solution is that you pretty much have to either apply it unfairly so the non-abusive isn't hosed or respect the fact that 15 CP was spent on the advantage and the player's character has some benefits due him.

When in doubt use the RAW.

And the RAW is specific: the GM makes secret Per rolls when a dangerous situation exists.

The occasional situatations where a player tests a cursed item with Danger Sense should be drowned in a flood of potentially dangerous situations in a DF setting. He avoids the cursed item IF your secret roll says he made his perception.

Mean is to make random rolls behind the screen and mutter 'Nothing Dangerous' to the player and let his own paranoia devour him.

[Xplo]

The way I read the advantage, it would work fine for dungeon traps and cursed objects.. but there's no reason why the GM needs to be terribly detailed about the nature of the danger. Say you're walking along a dungeon corridor when it goes off: is there a monster lurking around the next corner? Or is it a trap? What kind of trap? Pit with spikes? Hidden crossbow? Magic death rune? You don't know. Or maybe there's no trap per se, but the roof is unstable. Or a torrent of water is about to flood the corridor.

Likewise, suppose you reach for an ornate dagger on an altar when it goes off. Is it cursed? Or is the altar trapped? Or is there a giant spider getting ready to drop on you?

In any case, knowing about the danger doesn't tell you how to avoid or nullify it, it only gives you a chance to act. In the dagger example, what do you do? Avoid touching the dagger? Retreat from the altar? Prepare for battle? Take a deep breath and hold it? You've got one chance to do something.. choose well!

[Fish]

Now that I'm at home with my books, I'm going back to the Rules As Written:

You can't depend on it, but sometimes ... you know something's wrong. ...the GM rolls once against your perception, secretly... any situation involving an ambush, impending disaster, or similar hazard. On a success, you get enough of a warning that you can take action. A roll of 3 or 4 means you get a little detail...

"Roll once" in any situation involving "ambush, impending disaster or similar hazard" seems to exclude Danger Sense from operating

• to warn the player of alarm tripwires
• to test specific items against curses
• to warn the player of impending IRS audit
• to advise player of visiting in-laws
• to warn the player that another player has made a foolish move
• to test each section of the room, or each item in the room, individually
• as a watchdog, telling the player that his hostage is escaping
• to warn the player that the innocent-looking NPC is really the Big Bad Guy in disguise
• as a lie detector
• to advise the player that the enemy army, 100,000 strong and 50 miles away, has begun to march

Not that anybody was suggesting all of the above. :)

According to the RAW there is no penalty for failure or critical failure; DS does not give false positives.

In other words, when the PCs start pawing through the loot, the GM might roll once for the hoard as a whole, but not once per item. Thereafter the player could attempt to pick up items, singly or in bunches, and he doesn't get another roll. He cannot systematically test the items, having once triggered his Danger Sense. Similarly, the GM might roll once per room, but not once per 10x10 square of floor. Even if there are multiple traps in the same room, the GM is not obligated to give the player a secret Perception roll per trap. The rules say one roll only.

"Ambush and impending disaster" seems to suggest events that happen suddenly, without the character's foreknowledge. It doesn't test the player's suspicions when he believes there ought to be a hazard.

Anyhow, that's how I read it.

[Captain-Captain]

Originally Posted by b-dog

All I can say is that if your character has Danger Sense and a very high Per score you can pretty much declare that you will touch any object and then almost always suceed in finding out if there is something dangerous about the object. Sure you will fail occasionally and touch an object that was cursed or causes damage but for the vast majority of the time you will be a living mine sweeper.

That assumes there is only one danger in the room and that you have to get to touch range to trigger the DS. Neither assumption is valid.

[b-dog]

What if Danger Sense worked like this? Say a person with it is going to pick up a cursed dagger but he suceeds with his Danger Sense roll. Maybe this would allow the person to make a Dodge roll to avoid touching the dagger at the last minute. This would give a person with Danger Sense a chance of avoiding danger but not so much as to become a mine sweeper.

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by b-dog

What if Danger Sense worked like this? Say a person with it is going to pick up a cursed dagger but he suceeds with his Danger Sense roll. Maybe this would allow the person to make a Dodge roll to avoid touching the dagger at the last minute. This would give a person with Danger Sense a chance of avoiding danger but not so much as to become a mine sweeper.

I would tell you not if I was you player, and say either let it work or disallow it in you campaign, and i would build my DF Rogue differently.

If it goes of and warms I should never be require to role to stop my OWN action