[MA] Viking X & Shield Techniques

[Gigermann]

I have been trying to work out what the "best" GURPS approximation of the sort of shield techniques shown in this video, and others like it, specifically with regard to the "tangling" of the shields before the strike. A shield-to-shield Beat seemed appropriate, initially, but that would require an AoA(Double) to pull off quickly, which didn't "feel" right to me (and besides, it's not so much a "bashing" out of the way). I finally decided that, to my mind, the mechanics described for the Riposte Technique (MA 124-125) come really close—"parry" the opponent's shield then counter-attack.

Agree? Disagree? Can you think of a better simulation?

[Dunadin777]

Originally Posted by Gigermann

I have been trying to work out what the "best" GURPS approximation of the sort of shield techniques shown in this video, and others like it, specifically with regard to the "tangling" of the shields before the strike. A shield-to-shield Beat seemed appropriate, initially, but that would require an AoA(Double) to pull off quickly, which didn't "feel" right to me (and besides, it's not so much a "bashing" out of the way). I finally decided that, to my mind, the mechanics described for the Riposte Technique (MA 124-125) come really close—"parry" the opponent's shield then counter-attack.

Agree? Disagree? Can you think of a better simulation?

Well, it certainly looks like an All-out Attack(double) to me. If the target or one of his buddies happen to attack while doing that move, there doesn't seem to be any way to defend.

As for whether it's a Beat or a Riposte, that's a bit harder to tell when moving at reduced speed and power for a demonstration like this. But it seems to me that move only works if you hit your enemy's shield with enough force to twist it away. And if a move requires more force than speed and finesse, I call it a Beat.

I'm really not sure about it, though. I'd accept it either way, as long as it involved an AoA(double)

[aesir23]

IDHMBWM, but I would certainly allow Beat to be used as part of a Rapid Strike, since it doesn't require waiting for a reaction the way that feint does.

[Dinadon]

Originally Posted by aesir23

IDHMBWM, but I would certainly allow Beat to be used as part of a Rapid Strike, since it doesn't require waiting for a reaction the way that feint does.

You can feint as part of a rapid strike anyway. Whether or not you want the rapid strike penalty on your feint (or beat) roll is another matter.

[hal]

You can also use the combination attack rules on page 80 from GURPS MARTIAL ARTS.

[aesir23]

Actually, some of those look more like Dual Attacks where the shield is executing a beat.

[Gigermann]

After a bit more reading, I'm beginning to agree with those that are calling this instance a Beat, with one exception—it certainly doesn't look ST-based, to me, in the video. I suppose, though, one could declare this sort of maneuver a finesse-type Beat (that is, using DX, rather than ST), but I'm not sure what the "unintended consequences" might be regarding the switch. OTOH, it is true that the guys in the video aren't actually trying to kill each other, and it might look a bit different at "full speed."

Regardless of the mechanic, there is still a question, to my mind, of whether or not this particular maneuver would be less effective vs a shield (as opposed to a buckler, as shown), due to the way it's gripped—seems like "yes" to me—and how to model it.

I'm also liking the "Combination" idea (and by proxy, Rapid Strike)—that makes sense.

[Dangerious P. Cats]

Originally Posted by Dunadin777

Well, it certainly looks like an All-out Attack(double) to me. If the target or one of his buddies happen to attack while doing that move, there doesn't seem to be any way to defend.

As much as this is not the sort of attack one would do in a shield wall, ever, the technique depicted stopps the target from attacking by jamming the shield into their armpit, making it a form of pre-emptive defence. An all out attack is the wrong metric for this since it stops the target from attacking with their sword, as well as defending. When sparring you can use this technique as a defence in it's own right. The way it's presented in the video is pretty much a beat but the way shield knocks like this tend to work out in combat is more like a bind (which shouldn't only be applied to fencing weapons, grmmble grummble) with sufficient sucess binding both shield and sword. For game purposes one would be justified in using either.

[Dunadin777]

Originally Posted by Dangerious P. Cats

An all out attack is the wrong metric for this since it stops the target from attacking with their sword, as well as defending. When sparring you can use this technique as a defence in it's own right.

Two things. First, it looks to me like the target in the first set of demonstrations could easily thrust with his sword. It might be awkward, but he can lift his elbow and thrust downward, going for a blow to the attacker's head or collar. Secondly, even if the target can't counter-attack, that is not the measure of an All-out Attack. GURPS combat can occasionally let certain moves slip through its granularity, moves that prevent the person you're attacking from countering you. The true test of whether something is AoA, in my opinion, is whether the attacker could form any sort of defense against a third party. With his weight being thrown into the attack, his shield tangled in the enemy, and his weapon being thrust into his opponent, I'd say the attacker has no way of defending himself.

Maybe I'm just not seeing the possibility of defense, but I'd call that AoA if for no other reason than the attacker has no options if he tries this move and it fails.

YMMV

[Dangerious P. Cats]

Originally Posted by Dunadin777

Two things. First, it looks to me like the target in the first set of demonstrations could easily thrust with his sword. It might be awkward, but he can lift his elbow and thrust downward, going for a blow to the attacker's head or collar. Secondly, even if the target can't counter-attack, that is not the measure of an All-out Attack. GURPS combat can occasionally let certain moves slip through its granularity, moves that prevent the person you're attacking from countering you. The true test of whether something is AoA, in my opinion, is whether the attacker could form any sort of defense against a third party. With his weight being thrown into the attack, his shield tangled in the enemy, and his weapon being thrust into his opponent, I'd say the attacker has no way of defending himself.

Maybe I'm just not seeing the possibility of defense, but I'd call that AoA if for no other reason than the attacker has no options if he tries this move and it fails.

YMMV

The defender can't thrust over the shield, the shield is too large for that to happen. Either this or one of the following videos in the talk explains why in more detail. Likewise the attacker has a lot of defencive options should their attack not kill the target. Their shield is in the way and can be used for defence or to cover them retreating. Likewise if they fly out to the right (which they should) there's nothing preventing them from bringing folding thier sowrd into a hanging guard to close off the only line of attack the defender has. The reason I don't think it's an all out attack is that the attacker loses no defensive options in making the attack, and also that the same movement can be done defencivly (which is the way I typically use it). I miantian any motion that can be used as a defence could not constitute an all out attack in GURPS terms.