Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Board and Card Games > Ogre and G.E.V.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-14-2018, 06:42 PM   #51
tbeard1999
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Tyler, Texas
Default Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV

Quote:
Originally Posted by kentreuber View Post
Try playing HellTank. It's the super tank game that Metagaming published after Ogre went to Steve Jackson. HellTank (and it's follow-on HellTank Destroyer) has both opportunity fire and evasive maneuvers. It also has other units such as air and naval forces.
I recall playing it a few times. It had a cross-index combat system (i.e., cross index a tank with an apc to get a hit number) that I didn’t really care for. Worse, it had an alternate activation system (i.e., I activate 1 unit, then you activate 1 unit) that I also didn’t care for. It had more units and more detail, but it lacked Ogre/GEV’s clean and focused approach.

It’s near future assumptions were dubious, even in 1981. The idea of speed making tanks harder to kill had already been rejected by the militaries of the world. The new generation of MBTs (Abrams, Leopard 2, Merkava) coming into service in 1981 were far better protected than previous MBTs, particularly against missiles. Missiles in Helltank were even more effective against MBTS than they were in the Yom Kippur War. Helltank is really an extrapolation of early 1970s military tech and that was fairly obvious even in 1981.

A better sci-fi armored combat game was Grav Armor by Heritage. It had an interesting combat system - Player A moves while Player B fires.

Last edited by tbeard1999; 01-15-2018 at 12:33 AM.
tbeard1999 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2018, 06:57 PM   #52
ColBosch
 
ColBosch's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Default Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV

I should also note that, for some reason, Helltank is insanely expensive and hard to find on the secondary market. We're talking more than minty, unpunched Ogre first printings. No, that game is no solution. Besides, I don't care about Helltanks; I want my Ogres!
ColBosch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2018, 09:45 PM   #53
Tim Kauffman
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Pennsylvania
Default Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolf90 View Post
We will consider anything for Ogrezine as long as it pertains to the world of Ogre in some manner. The key is it needs to be interesting, well-written and ideally, deemed relevant to a notable faction of Ogre fans. The more obscure the article, the better it needs to be.

Playtesting is highly recommended for units, rules and scenarios. Also, complexity for complexity's sake is generally a bad thing; the KISS* rule should dominate 9 times out of 10.

I look forward to everyone's submissions!

D.
Thanks Drew and Roger that. :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by tbeard1999 View Post
And a tank that is waiting on an enemy unit to enter range would be able to engage that enemy unit when it did so. Particularly with the kind of advanced targeting systems that one would expect in 2085. The fact that it isn’t that tank’s “turn” wouldn’t matter in real life.
My take on OGRE is the vague abstract nature of it can be explained. That "waiting" unit may not really be waiting in the strict sense of the word.
It may be in between moving and waiting or between waiting and moving...even though it moved for it's turn, or may not move next turn. Maybe they outmaneuvered the kill zone of the stationary "waiting" attacker in one of any various ways? They "got the jump on them", or tactically changed the situation to their advantage somehow for example. That's OGREs abstract nature showing. It's not literally that literal. For example to avoid being attacked as much as possible by a Howitzer a unit needs to move to just outside a Howitzers attack envelope before it moves again trying to get into attack range in order to get as close as possible before it attacks. Why can't that Howitzer attack the unit as soon as it's in range? Because that range is an abstraction. At least this is the way I always looked at it.

It must be pointed out that both players are using the same rules. So just because someone else suffers from these rules by the other player should not mean there is something wrong with the rules because the other player can return the favor using the same rules. Which means the situations this abstract nature of OGRE creates Imho is what makes OGRE such a great game. It causes you to think and play differently than other games. Which gives the game the flavor of fighting battles in The Last War. Something we can't quite explain how it would all function based on Warfare that predates it but we can play in the game.

That said, I do like the idea of using some sort of opportunity fire for OGRE.

I'm partial to the "Opportunity Fire" as soon or as long as a enemy unit is in range by a unit that did not move.
__________________
"So I stood my ground...my only hope to die as I had always lived-fighting" John Carter of Mars
Tim Kauffman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2018, 07:12 AM   #54
GranitePenguin
Ogre Line Editor
 
GranitePenguin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Plainfield, IL
Default Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV

Quote:
Originally Posted by tbeard1999 View Post
And understand, I think “it’s an abstraction that occasionally allows aberrant results and I’m okay with it” is a perfectly reasonable response.
Ultimately, this is pretty much my view on it. I've never noticed anything wrong with it because I was never bogged down with reality. I take Ogre at face value, play the game by its rules, and just enjoy playing it; no justification needed.
__________________
GranitePenguin
Ogre Line Editor
GranitePenguin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2018, 08:01 AM   #55
Misplaced Buckeye
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mack_JB View Post
It seems like it would just add complexity, for the occasional ability of the 'defender' to get first reaction fire in. Might as well then add LOS rules, and Morale, and from there Supply ... in which case, then I'd just play ASL.

Ogre/GEV is meant to be fast and deadly ...
Personally I like the ECM factor thrown in occasionally to force an LOS factor into the scenario.
Misplaced Buckeye is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2018, 08:36 PM   #56
CON_Troll
 
CON_Troll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Orlando, FL. Please forgive me...
Default Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV

For those who have the OGRE Miniatures book (or the pdf nowadays) you know that they put in all sorts of LOS rules. Heck, in the playtest version there were even rules for firing arcs and what sections of an Ogre could be damaged depending on your firing position.

Frankly, much as I liked Ogre Miniatures (the book was beautiful and set the bar for miniature books to emulate for years to come) I simply didn't like all the additional rules. This is why I prefer the hex-based game.

And I KNOW that sounds a tad hypocritical coming from the co-inventor of "OGRE Macrotures" back in the '90s (for those of you with memories of GEN-Con and a few DragonCons from 15 to 25 years ago.)
__________________
"How do you know it's an OGRE Ninja if we can't see it... Oh, right..."
John H.
CON_Troll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2018, 04:05 AM   #57
tbeard1999
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Tyler, Texas
Default Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV

Quote:
Originally Posted by CON_Troll View Post
For those who have the OGRE Miniatures book (or the pdf nowadays) you know that they put in all sorts of LOS rules. Heck, in the playtest version there were even rules for firing arcs and what sections of an Ogre could be damaged depending on your firing position.

Frankly, much as I liked Ogre Miniatures (the book was beautiful and set the bar for miniature books to emulate for years to come) I simply didn't like all the additional rules. This is why I prefer the hex-based game.

And I KNOW that sounds a tad hypocritical coming from the co-inventor of "OGRE Macrotures" back in the '90s (for those of you with memories of GEN-Con and a few DragonCons from 15 to 25 years ago.)
Yeah, I didn’t like the line of sight rules in Ogre Miniatures either. At that point, the lack of any kind of opportunity fire system makes the game too abstract for me to enjoy. In addition, they flatly contradicted the established background. And as I recall, the line of sight rules dealt only with elevation and not terrain. If I’m remembering correctly, that’s bizarre.

I never saw the Macrotures but man they looked like something I’d want...
tbeard1999 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2018, 04:34 AM   #58
ColBosch
 
ColBosch's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Default Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV

The only official Macroture was the Paneuro GEV, produced by Armorcast. It was gorgeous. CON_Troll also has a collection of custom-cast 1/35-scale models, including Ogres! Sadly, he's said they need repairs after years at conventions. I'm tempted to make him an offer on the lot. ;-)
ColBosch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2018, 01:54 PM   #59
GranitePenguin
Ogre Line Editor
 
GranitePenguin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Plainfield, IL
Default Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV

LOS for lasers is one of the primary reasons most of my Ogre play stopped at G.E.V. I'll use the maps from shockwave, but very rarely will use either Lasers or CMs.
__________________
GranitePenguin
Ogre Line Editor
GranitePenguin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2018, 04:35 PM   #60
ColBosch
 
ColBosch's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Default Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV

Quote:
Originally Posted by GranitePenguin View Post
LOS for lasers is one of the primary reasons most of my Ogre play stopped at G.E.V. I'll use the maps from shockwave, but very rarely will use either Lasers or CMs.
Yeah, they probably should've just had a normal (if long) range with the special ability "can shoot at cruise missiles at any range."
ColBosch is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:36 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.