wait and counterattack

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Though it does allow a setup where Alpha decides whether or not to take the all-out attack after finding out whether or not Beta scored a hit that turn, if my interpretation of the Wait text is correct.

Though Alpha may have to give up their move that turn entirely if they try that trick and then chose to defend. I'm not sure...I'd have to go parse my Basic Set.

or give up there turn entirely if if beta doesn't attack in away that trips the wait trigger.

[Tuk the Weekah]

I think the example is worded poorly, to get the OP's intent.

Originally Posted by Captain Joy

Alpha Turn 1: I take a Wait maneuver. I will Parry if attacked and then immediately Counterattack my foe.
Beta Turn 1: I attack Alpha. [Alpha successfully Parries. Alpha then Counterattacks Beta.]
Alpha Turn 2: I attack Beta.

To make the OP's scenario work in GURPS as written, I think it should go like this:

Alpha Turn 1: I take a Wait maneuver. If I successfully Parry Beta's attack I will immediately Counterattack my foe. [The trigger is his own successful Parry, not Beta's attack, otherwise the Attack would preempt Beta's attack.]
Beta Turn 1: I attack Alpha. [Alpha successfully Parries. Alpha then Counterattacks Beta.]
Alpha Turn 2: I attack Beta.

Originally Posted by corwyn

I'm a bit more concerned with this abuse:

Is there anything, mechanically, preventing Alpha attacking with an All-out attack, thereby getting all the benefits and none of the disadvantages - assuming he only has one opponent.

I realize Beta could do the same back to Alpha afterwards - assuming he's still standing. But that might be a big if. And it creates a never-ending cycle.

On the Wait/Counterattack? Yes. He has to Parry, which he cannot do without an active defence. It's explicitly stated on B366.

On the second Attack? Nope, particularly in a Cinematic game, where that exact sequence [Wait-Counteattack-All-Out Attack] pretty much exactly describe how a Hero defeats a Mook. See: Princess Bride (Inigo vs. the Mooks in the hall), 13th Warrior (the duel scene), etc.

It would be a very risky sequence to try against a tough opponent, though, particularly if your foe uses a Deceptive Attack to reduce your Parry and you fail; since you failed to Parry, the trigger event did not occur, and you lose your action.

[Not that this is going to bite me in the butt on Sunday evening this week.]

[The Wrathchild]

Originally Posted by fifiste

Counterattack says you can do it on your turn following a parry.
Can you declare a wait .. I'll wait parry+counterattack.
I see this that you trade an otherwise free attack before your parry, for an attack immidiately right now but with and added -2 to parry for your opponent.

No.

Wait allows you to interrupt the opponent - ie. you act before he lands any attack. Thus you will never get to Parry as part of a Wait*. You might need to after your action, when the opponent finishes his maneuver (if he can - and you would then be able to Counterattack off that Parry on your next turn).

What you propose can be one of two things: On your turn you either All-Out Defend (+2 parry, presumeably) or you Evaluate (+1 to your next attack). When your opponent then attacks on his turn, you deftly Parry, and then on your next turn you Counterattack.

* Of course, if the opponent does something that does not trigger the Wait, he could land an attack, but that would be because your Wait got "wasted" - that is the price of the Wait gamble

[Peter V. Dell'Orto]

Originally Posted by The Wrathchild

No.

Wait allows you to interrupt the opponent - ie. you act before he lands any attack. Thus you will never get to Parry as part of a Wait*. You might need to after your action, when the opponent finishes his maneuver (if he can - and you would then be able to Counterattack off that Parry on your next turn).

Do you have a page ref for that? I'm trying to see where GURPS says you either can't Parry as part of a Wait, or that so limits your triggers that you couldn't try it.

Stop Hit says you can try to attack into an oncoming attack. Why not defend against one and retaliate?

I suppose there is a big worry about "but then I get "two turns" to his one" but really it's just two attacks to his one, at a risk of a) failing the Parry which is its own problem, plus means you can't use Counterattack) or b) not even being attacked. And don't forget that the guy you Wait for might not even end his turn with your parry - he might have other attacks, other actions, other moves to do, which don't get nullified. You try your parry, if it works you try your Counterattack, you resolve that, and move on.

It's kind of a like a more timid version of Stop Hit.

I'd have to see it played out in bad ways before I'd be willing to say it's abusive.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Toadkiller_Dog

Do you have a page ref for that? I'm trying to see where GURPS says you either can't Parry as part of a Wait, or that so limits your triggers that you couldn't try it.

Parrying as part of a wait doesn't really make sense, since parrying happens out of turn without you taking a Maneuver anyway.

Setting a Wait to go off after you parry seems perfectly reasonable though.

[fifiste]

Hmm yeah problem solved :D

[Captain Joy]

Originally Posted by Toadkiller_Dog

I'm trying to see where GURPS says you either can't Parry as part of a Wait, or that so limits your triggers that you couldn't try it.

Stop Hit says you can try to attack into an oncoming attack. Why not defend against one and retaliate?.

You might find these Kromm-posts-containing threads instructive:

http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...&postcount=111
http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread...562#post562562

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Captain Joy

You might find these Kromm-posts-containing threads instructive:

http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread...562#post562562

Obviously mileage may vary, but I'd agree with the 'this doesn't make sense' contingent.

[jacobmuller]

Originally Posted by Captain Joy

http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread...562#post562562

I've read that sequence at least four times. I'm still lost.
Maybe part of the problem is that the Kromm posts are, not wrong but, not entirely, precisely relevant to the problem.
The quotes I'm boiling it down to:

A Wait can be followed by any maneuver, technique, or combat option;
a Wait is wasted if you don't use it before your foe completes his action.

The first sounds like you can Wait and then counter-attack.
The second sounds like you can't. But the key is, your opponent's Turn isn't over just because he has attacked you - he still has to defend, step, whatever. And if his attack has triggered your Wait, he has to wait for your turn to be over.
Does that make sense?
My Stop-Hit reading is apparently wrong: in this example, you aren't waiting for him to attack, atacking him, then defending; you're waiting for his attack, defending, then attacking. His attack is spent but that doesn't end his turn.

[zazen]

The way I handle counterattack is, you necessarily have to wait before it.

No such thing as attacking, then, after you parry an attack, immediately counter-attacking.

You have to wait, then parry, and counter-attack - but the counter-attack cannot be parried, only dodged or blocked.