Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-20-2018, 02:20 AM   #51
evileeyore
Banned
 
evileeyore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: 100 hurricane swamp
Default Re: Serrated Sword

Quote:
Originally Posted by lwcamp View Post
... excluding ground and lamniform sharks...
Did you just confirm that land sharks exist?







No, I did not previously know there was a type of shark called a 'ground shark'. Learn new things every day...
evileeyore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2018, 06:45 AM   #52
cptbutton
 
cptbutton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Default Re: Serrated Sword

Quote:
Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
No, I did not previously know there was a type of shark called a 'ground shark'. Learn new things every day...
An ability they evolved as a defense against electric eels.
__________________
--
Burma!
cptbutton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2018, 08:27 AM   #53
lwcamp
 
lwcamp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: The plutonium rich regions of Washington State
Default Re: Serrated Sword

Quote:
Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
Did you just confirm that land sharks exist?
What is your security clearance, citizen? Also, please supply a list of your place of residence, place of work, and next of kin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
No, I did not previously know there was a type of shark called a 'ground shark'. Learn new things every day...
All joking aside, the ground sharks are a large group of sharks that include the requiem sharks (notorious for including among their numbers the tiger shark, bull shark, and oceanic whitetip shark, along with various less dangerous reef sharks), as well as catsharks and hammerheads.

I'll also note that the great machairodont sabercats (the "saber-tooth tigers") had serrated teeth, as did a number of other land-croc like things (Pristichampsus, various mekosuchids such as Quinkana, various rauisuchians such as Postosuchus, Saurosuchus, and plenty of others). So there might not be land-dwelling sharks, but in the past there definitely were land-dwelling, running crocodile-things that could chase down their prey over open ground and tear it to shreds.

Luke
lwcamp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2018, 10:46 AM   #54
Fred Brackin
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Default Re: Serrated Sword

Quote:
Originally Posted by lwcamp View Post
W

I'll also note that the great machairodont sabercats (the "saber-tooth tigers") had serrated teeth,
On a TV show I saw a number of years ago they were doing animal "Who Would Win?" shows with Science!. One of the science-like things they would do is reconstruct skulls and teeth (usually in cast aluminum) and then test bites.

They did this with a sabretoothed tiger and mounted their reconstucted jaws on a small piece of earthmoving equipment (it might or might not have been a "bobcat"). Then they attacked a side of beef.

The results were that the sabre fangs made long but relatively shallow gouges. Perhaps 2 feet long by 1 or 2 inches deep. Not what I expected though it certainly would have bled heavily.

This might give them a somewhat similar M.O. to komodos who bite and then wait for their prey to bleed out but I wouldn't really say that the teeth were doing the same thing. More like coming to a similar end result by a different means.
__________________
Fred Brackin
Fred Brackin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2018, 08:40 PM   #55
lwcamp
 
lwcamp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: The plutonium rich regions of Washington State
Default Re: Serrated Sword

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
On a TV show I saw a number of years ago they were doing animal "Who Would Win?" shows with Science!. One of the science-like things they would do is reconstruct skulls and teeth (usually in cast aluminum) and then test bites.

They did this with a sabretoothed tiger and mounted their reconstucted jaws on a small piece of earthmoving equipment (it might or might not have been a "bobcat"). Then they attacked a side of beef.

The results were that the sabre fangs made long but relatively shallow gouges. Perhaps 2 feet long by 1 or 2 inches deep. Not what I expected though it certainly would have bled heavily.

This might give them a somewhat similar M.O. to komodos who bite and then wait for their prey to bleed out but I wouldn't really say that the teeth were doing the same thing. More like coming to a similar end result by a different means.
There has certainly been a lot of speculation about how sabercats used their fangs. Neglecting the very silly ("they used their fangs for climbing!"), a lot of modern paleontologists have converged on the thought that they grappled with their very powerful forearms to wrestle their victim to where they could attack - maybe the neck? Maybe the abdomen? In any event, they would deliver a lethal, finishing wound on their pinned and incapacitated prey. The idea being that enamel and dentine are not strong enough to allow a thin, bladed tooth to stand up to the forces imposed by a struggling, twisting, bucking victim.

It is also worth noting that the sabercats had a remarkably weak bite, a very wide gape, and very strong neck muscles. One thought is that they stabbed with their neck, rather than biting per se.

Luke
lwcamp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2018, 04:34 AM   #56
Bruno
 
Bruno's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Canada
Default Re: Serrated Sword

Quote:
Originally Posted by lwcamp View Post
It is also worth noting that the sabercats had a remarkably weak bite, a very wide gape, and very strong neck muscles. One thought is that they stabbed with their neck, rather than biting per se.
They have a wide gape, but because of the large canine teeth they can only fully use it to "nip" with the incisors (usually reserved for in-species fighting). The actual gape around the canines is smaller than that of a contemporary lion or tiger. I've even seen it proposed that they attacked with their mouth closed to protect the teeth but since they're not a sex-linked trait, that seems like evolution gone wild.
__________________
All about Size Modifier; Unified Hit Location Table
A Wiki for my F2F Group
A neglected GURPS blog
Bruno is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2018, 09:37 AM   #57
Fred Brackin
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Default Re: Serrated Sword

Quote:
Originally Posted by lwcamp View Post
There has certainly been a lot of speculation about how sabercats used their fangs. Neglecting the very silly ("they used their fangs for climbing!"), a lot of modern paleontologists have converged on the thought that they grappled with their very powerful forearms to wrestle their victim to where they could attack - maybe the neck? Maybe the abdomen? In any event, they would deliver a lethal, finishing wound on their pinned and incapacitated prey.
Wrestling with prey is common enough among modern cats both big and small. enough so that I tend to think that the purpose of curved claws is to give a bonus to Grappling rather than to tear flesh. Lions do use those claws to wrestle down even prey larger than themselves.

Modern cats also do use a form of the Gurps Choke Hold on their prey's airway as a finishing move. I do not believe that smilodons woudl be well adapted to doing this though. The sabre fangs would appear to me to get in the way.

Watching that articulated cast of a smilodon's skull in action it was clear that what would hit first in any attack at full gape was the tip of the sabre fangs but I did not see any way for them to drive deep.
__________________
Fred Brackin
Fred Brackin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2018, 09:22 PM   #58
lwcamp
 
lwcamp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: The plutonium rich regions of Washington State
Default Re: Serrated Sword

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
Wrestling with prey is common enough among modern cats both big and small. enough so that I tend to think that the purpose of curved claws is to give a bonus to Grappling rather than to tear flesh. Lions do use those claws to wrestle down even prey larger than themselves.
I entirely agree. As far as I can tell, claws are mainly used to hold on to prey, with raking and slashing being secondary defensive or dominance-related uses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
Modern cats also do use a form of the Gurps Choke Hold on their prey's airway as a finishing move. I do not believe that smilodons woudl be well adapted to doing this though. The sabre fangs would appear to me to get in the way.
The idea I've seen bandied about is not that sabercats would use their fangs to choke their prey - rather, they would bite the throat to stab into their prey and cut the trachea, jugular, and carotid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno View Post
They have a wide gape, but because of the large canine teeth they can only fully use it to "nip" with the incisors (usually reserved for in-species fighting). The actual gape around the canines is smaller than that of a contemporary lion or tiger. I've even seen it proposed that they attacked with their mouth closed to protect the teeth but since they're not a sex-linked trait, that seems like evolution gone wild.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
Watching that articulated cast of a smilodon's skull in action it was clear that what would hit first in any attack at full gape was the tip of the sabre fangs but I did not see any way for them to drive deep.
Here is a bio-mechanical modeling study of the gapes of two saber-toothed predators (including the famous sabercat Smilodon fatalis with a leopard for comparison
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0066888 .
Note the figures, such as this one
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...e.0066888.g001
(with Smilodon on the left). These diagrams make it plausible that Smilodon and even more so Thylacosmilus could stab with their fangs, sinking them gum-deep into their victim, plausibly driven down and in through the use of neck muscles rather than jaw muscles.

Regarding the incisors, the sabercats apparently had incisors the protruded forward more than the felinae (the branch of the cat family that includes all modern cats - the sabercats were all the the other main branch, the machairodonts). It is supposed that this allowed then to efficiently deflesh carcases despite those cumbersome canines.

Here's a recent article on sabercats that I found interesting
https://aeon.co/essays/the-magnifice...-life-on-earth

Luke
lwcamp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2018, 10:22 PM   #59
Anthony
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
Default Re: Serrated Sword

Quote:
Originally Posted by lwcamp View Post
I entirely agree. As far as I can tell, claws are mainly used to hold on to prey, with raking and slashing being secondary defensive or dominance-related uses.
The ostrich seems to not have much use for its claws beyond raking, but isn't a predator. How do burrowing predators like badgers use their claws?
__________________
My GURPS site and Blog.
Anthony is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2018, 11:11 PM   #60
lwcamp
 
lwcamp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: The plutonium rich regions of Washington State
Default Re: Serrated Sword

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
The ostrich seems to not have much use for its claws beyond raking, but isn't a predator. How do burrowing predators like badgers use their claws?
Sorry, I should have been clearer. Cat claws are mainly meat-hooks used for grappling. Other animals use claws for different purposes.

Badgers, as far as I can tell, will use their claws to hold down smallish-prey or rake at things, but their main weapon is their bite and their claws are mainly a digging implement.

Luke
lwcamp is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:17 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.