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Old 11-08-2013, 12:49 PM   #21
Peter V. Dell'Orto
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Default Re: 4 swings?

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Originally Posted by jtsmith1287 View Post
Ok wait ... so say we've got a dual wielder with ambidexterity. We could do an all out attack (double) and get a full attack with main and offhand, and then with extra attack a third full attack? Would that be correct? No rapid strikes or anything like that.
By "full attack" do you "with no penalty"? Because you'd need to buy off the penalty for a Dual-Weapon Attack to do that. Ambidexterity would only get rid of the -4 for the off-hand, not the -4 to each attack for doing two at the same time (aka, DWA).

If you have Ambidexterity, two weapons, and want three attacks, you can do it with All-Out Attack (Double), but you'll attack at -4/-4 (the Dual-Weapon Attack, so that's -4 on one hand and -4 on the other) and once at -0 with either of them (or some other strike if you choose). Someone who bought off the DWA penalty with the Dual-Weapon Attack technique could potentially attack 3 times at -0/-0 and -0, using one weapon twice during an All-Out Attack.
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Old 11-08-2013, 01:10 PM   #22
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Default Re: 4 swings?

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
While we're bringing up technicalities, a person with Extra Attack (no modifiers) and a knife in each hand has no reason to use Duel Weapon Attack. His Extra Attack is already coming from the knife in his off-hand.
Such a person could DWA with the knives and then use the Extra Attack to kick or bite.
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Old 11-08-2013, 01:30 PM   #23
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Default Re: 4 swings?

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Originally Posted by Peter V. Dell'Orto View Post
By "full attack" do you "with no penalty"? Because you'd need to buy off the penalty for a Dual-Weapon Attack to do that. Ambidexterity would only get rid of the -4 for the off-hand, not the -4 to each attack for doing two at the same time (aka, DWA).

If you have Ambidexterity, two weapons, and want three attacks, you can do it with All-Out Attack (Double), but you'll attack at -4/-4 (the Dual-Weapon Attack, so that's -4 on one hand and -4 on the other) and once at -0 with either of them (or some other strike if you choose). Someone who bought off the DWA penalty with the Dual-Weapon Attack technique could potentially attack 3 times at -0/-0 and -0, using one weapon twice during an All-Out Attack.
I think the example isn't using DWA at all. He's using AOA(D) to strike twice at no penalty with his on hand, Extra Attack and Ambidexterity to strike once with no penalty with his off hand. Risky but legit.

JTSmith: also investigate Main-Gauche skill.
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Old 11-08-2013, 02:13 PM   #24
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Default Re: 4 swings?

From what I'm reading in the books it almost sounds like, regardless of how it happens, if both hands are attacking in the same turn those hands are at a -4 (with ambidexterity). This leaves AoA Double to allow a second main hand attack at -0 ...

AoA Double maneuver:
1) Mainhand -4
2) Offhand -4 (+4 for ambidexterity) granted by Extra Attack
3) Mainhand -0 (Concluding AoA Double maneuver)

From the reading I've been doing and the responses I've seen, THIS seems to be correct. Any thoughts?
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Old 11-08-2013, 02:20 PM   #25
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Default Re: 4 swings?

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Originally Posted by jtsmith1287 View Post
From what I'm reading in the books it almost sounds like, regardless of how it happens, if both hands are attacking in the same turn those hands are at a -4 (with ambidexterity).
This is not correct. I don't know what you're reading to draw that conclusion, but...no.

The only thing likely to require a -4 penalty to both hands like that is a Dual Weapon Attack. That penalty is specific to a Dual Weapon Attack and in no way applies if you do not make use of the Dual Weapon Attach mechanic.

EDIT: I'd note that unless you have Extra Attack, Dual Weapon Attack is usually the only way you would make a two-weapon attack. You might be allowed to with a Rapid Strike or AoA (Double) but there's almost never a reason to.
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Last edited by Ulzgoroth; 11-08-2013 at 02:29 PM.
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Old 11-08-2013, 02:29 PM   #26
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Default Re: 4 swings?

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
This is not correct. I don't know what you're reading to draw that conclusion, but...no.
"A normal human can purchase one Extra Attack. This lets him attack with both hands at once, and represents unusually good coordination." P.53

Attacking with both hands at once merits a -4 to each, right? Regardless of how it's done?
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Old 11-08-2013, 02:33 PM   #27
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Default Re: 4 swings?

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Originally Posted by jtsmith1287 View Post
"A normal human can purchase one Extra Attack. This lets him attack with both hands at once, and represents unusually good coordination." P.53

Attacking with both hands at once merits a -4 to each, right? Regardless of how it's done?
No. Attacking with both hands is only -4 if you're doing it via Dual Weapon Attack. If it's from Extra Attack or All-Out Attack, there's no penalty (apart from an off-hand penalty, if you lack Ambidexterity or Off-Hand Weapon Training).
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Old 11-08-2013, 02:34 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by jtsmith1287 View Post
"A normal human can purchase one Extra Attack. This lets him attack with both hands at once, and represents unusually good coordination." P.53

Attacking with both hands at once merits a -4 to each, right? Regardless of how it's done?
No it does not. Again, I don't know where you're getting this idea.
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Old 11-08-2013, 02:44 PM   #29
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Default Re: 4 swings?

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
No it does not. Again, I don't know where you're getting this idea.
"Normally, you are at -4 to attack with two weapons at once unless you make an All-Out Attack. This technique lets you “buy off” that penalty. (Note that you must still learn Off-Hand Weapon Training, p. 232, to reduce the -4 for using the “off” hand!) For detailed rules, see Dual-Weapon Attacks (p. 417)." P.230
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Old 11-08-2013, 02:45 PM   #30
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Default Re: 4 swings?

Oh you know what ... ignore me. I just read my own dang quote and saw "unless you make an All-out Attack". *sigh* ... carry on, nothing to see here.
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