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Old 11-08-2013, 07:22 AM   #11
Tomsdad
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
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Default Re: 4 swings?

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidtmoore View Post
Where it gets silly is when you stack Altered Time Rate with Extra Attack, All-Out Attack, and Rapid Strike.

For a couple hundred points, you can get Trained by a Master, Altered Time Rate 1, and Extra Attacks 2, then take All-Out Attack (Double) twice, making 3-attack Rapid Strikes and adding two extra attacks to each maneuver, for a total of 12 attacks, half at full skill and half at -6.
Hope you have enough points left to make those attacks worth having especially the half at -6, though!

You'll have no defence during/after all that, and I think I'll take a retreat option on my dodges against all that (although how effective that will be will depend on the GM using penalties on multiple dodges).
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Old 11-08-2013, 08:14 AM   #12
Fred Brackin
 
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Default Re: 4 swings?

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Originally Posted by the_matrix_walker View Post
Yes, "All Out Attack - Double" is misleadingly named. You never get more than one extra attack. You can get another by using Dual Weapon Attack or Rapid Strike (but not both, you can only use on DWA or Rapid strike per Maneuver).
While we're bringing up technicalities, a person with Extra Attack (no modifiers) and a knife in each hand has no reason to use Duel Weapon Attack. His Extra Attack is already coming from the knife in his off-hand.

This would also apply to some of the possibilities of All Out Attack(Double). The additional Attack from the AOA needs to come from a balanced weapon in one of his hands in this situation.

A simple (and usually correct) way to look at Extra attack is to add up all your attacks before Extra Attack and then add one per level of that Ad _If_ you were not already getting an additional attack for using a second weapon.

Extra Attack is definitely never "multiplied" by any Maneuver or Technique. Extra Attack is about addition and not multiplication.

Note that I started talking about Extra Attack (no modifiers). Extra attack (Multistrike+20%) from Powers just lets you and an Extra Attack regardless of hands and number of weapons.
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Old 11-08-2013, 08:28 AM   #13
Ulzgoroth
 
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Default Re: 4 swings?

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
A simple (and usually correct) way to look at Extra attack is to add up all your attacks before Extra Attack and then add one per level of that Ad _If_ you were not already getting an additional attack for using a second weapon.
You never get an additional attack for using a second weapon. That's not a thing. Unless you had some sort of conditional Extra Attack advantage I guess.

With Extra Attack 1, you certainly can Dual Weapon Attack and make a third attack at full skill. If you only have two hands that you've already used for your DWA you'll need to make it with something other than a hand, but most people have options for that.
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Old 11-08-2013, 08:36 AM   #14
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Default Re: 4 swings?

OK, i need to establish a baseline real quick because I think I'm now more confused than I was to begin with.

If you're wielding 2 weapons but with 0 advantages you only get to use one of them a turn, correct? If you choose all-out attack double, does this force you to use the offhand weapon, or can you make it with your main hand, granted it's balanced? So with Extra Attack 1, does this again force you to use a hand that has not attacked yet, or can it be done with that same hand?
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Old 11-08-2013, 08:44 AM   #15
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Default Re: 4 swings?

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Originally Posted by jtsmith1287 View Post
OK, i need to establish a baseline real quick because I think I'm now more confused than I was to begin with.

If you're wielding 2 weapons but with 0 advantages you only get to use one of them a turn, correct? If you choose all-out attack double, does this force you to use the offhand weapon, or can you make it with your main hand, granted it's balanced? So with Extra Attack 1, does this again force you to use a hand that has not attacked yet, or can it be done with that same hand?
If you're dual-wielding, pick up the Dual-Weapon Attack technique. This lets you use both weapons in one attack, without having to use AoA (Double).
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Old 11-08-2013, 09:02 AM   #16
Ulzgoroth
 
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Default Re: 4 swings?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jtsmith1287 View Post
OK, i need to establish a baseline real quick because I think I'm now more confused than I was to begin with.

If you're wielding 2 weapons but with 0 advantages you only get to use one of them a turn, correct? If you choose all-out attack double, does this force you to use the offhand weapon, or can you make it with your main hand, granted it's balanced? So with Extra Attack 1, does this again force you to use a hand that has not attacked yet, or can it be done with that same hand?
All Out Attack double does not require you to use different weapons for the two attacks it allows. (Balanced also isn't relevant, unless you're using that to mean 'does not become unready'. You can AoA (Double) with an axe.) Likewise Rapid Strike can use the same weapon twice.

Unmodified Extra Attack does require you to use a bit that you haven't already attacked with. To remove that requirement, take the Multistrike enhancement.

To make use of two weapons at once offensively without special Advantages, Dual Weapon Attack allows two attacks with different weapons at a lower penalty than Rapid Strike, and you may be able to buy off the penalty as a technique.
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Old 11-08-2013, 09:07 AM   #17
davidtmoore
 
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Default Re: 4 swings?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jtsmith1287 View Post
OK, i need to establish a baseline real quick because I think I'm now more confused than I was to begin with.

If you're wielding 2 weapons but with 0 advantages you only get to use one of them a turn, correct? If you choose all-out attack double, does this force you to use the offhand weapon, or can you make it with your main hand, granted it's balanced? So with Extra Attack 1, does this again force you to use a hand that has not attacked yet, or can it be done with that same hand?
Leave out Extra Attack for the moment.

As a standard, you get one maneuver per turn.

If you choose the Attack maneuver, you get to make one attack with one ready weapon.

- A Rapid Strike allows you, in place of that one attack, to make two attacks with a ready weapon that doesn't become unready when used, at -6 to each attack (Martial Arts allows three or more attacks and varying penalties). It has no other effect, on your defenses or otherwise.

- A Dual-Weapon Attack is a special type of Rapid Strike at only -4 to each attack, but the attacks must be made with two different ready weapons (although this does mean they can become unready when used).

With me so far?

All of that is with the standard Attack maneuver. If you make the All-Out Attack (Double) maneuver, you can make two attacks with a ready weapon that doesn't become unready when used, or with two separate weapons and it doesn't matter if they become unready, at no penalty. But you lose your defenses.

- But when making an All-Out Attack (Double), you can then turn one of those attacks into a Rapid Strike or Dual-Weapon Attack, so you get one attack at full skill, and then two attacks at -4 or -6; with the caveat, again, that you can only attack more than once with a weapon that doesn't become unready when used, so if you were only using unweildy weapons you would need three hands (if using a weapon that doesn't become unready and making a Rapid Strike, all three attacks can be with the same weapon).

- But, crucially, you can't turn both attacks into Rapid Strikes and Dual-Weapon Attacks; a mundane character with no special advantages can have three attacks by totally committing and taking stiff penalties, but no more (or not usually).

Extra Attack then adds one attack per level, at full skill, to any maneuver that allows at least one attacks. The Extra Attack is taken at the end of your maneuver, and as with All-Out Attack one one attack (this one or any other) can be Rapid Striked or DWA'd. It is a single attack at full skill, and it must be taken with a weapon that hasn't been used at unless you take the Multistrike enhancement, in which case you can use any weapon that's still ready. So:

- If you take Attack and choose not to use either the Rapid Strike or DWA options, Extra Attack 1 gives you two attacks at full skill.
- If you take Attack and take a Rapid Strike, Extra Attack gives you one attack at full skill (your Extra Attack) and two attacks at -6.
- If you take All-Out Attack (Double) and turn one of the attacks into a Rapid Strike, Extra Attack gives you two attacks at full skill (the second All-Out Attack and the Extra Attack) and two attacks at -6 (the first All-Out Attack, Rapid Striked).

Finally, Altered Time Rate allows you to take an additional maneuver. So you can carry out two Attack maneuvers, two All-Out Attack (Double) maneuvers, or one of each, taking any or all the options above for each maneuver. In that case, Extra Attack applies to each maneuver.

In all cases, these attacks can be carried out with a weapon that's been used before that maneuver (the only absolute exceptions are that DWA always requires two weapons, and Extra Attack requires you to use a weapon that's not been used that maneuver, unless it's taken with the Multistrike enhancement), as long as it's not been rendered unready by an attack earlier that turn. Using a knife or fist, every single attack could be with the same weapon!
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Last edited by davidtmoore; 11-08-2013 at 09:14 AM.
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Old 11-08-2013, 11:16 AM   #18
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Default Re: 4 swings?

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Originally Posted by davidtmoore View Post
- If you take Attack and choose not to use either the Rapid Strike or DWA options, Extra Attack 1 gives you two attacks at full skill.
- If you take Attack and take a Rapid Strike, Extra Attack gives you one attack at full skill (your Extra Attack) and two attacks at -6.
- If you take All-Out Attack (Double) and turn one of the attacks into a Rapid Strike, Extra Attack gives you two attacks at full skill (the second All-Out Attack and the Extra Attack) and two attacks at -6 (the first All-Out Attack, Rapid Striked).

...

In all cases, these attacks can be carried out with a weapon that's been used before that maneuver (the only absolute exceptions are that DWA always requires two weapons, and Extra Attack requires you to use a weapon that's not been used that maneuver, unless it's taken with the Multistrike enhancement), as long as it's not been rendered unready by an attack earlier that turn. Using a knife or fist, every single attack could be with the same weapon!
Perfect! Thanks!
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Old 11-08-2013, 12:16 PM   #19
jtsmith1287
 
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Default Re: 4 swings?

Ok wait ... so say we've got a dual wielder with ambidexterity. We could do an all out attack (double) and get a full attack with main and offhand, and then with extra attack a third full attack? Would that be correct? No rapid strikes or anything like that.

EDIT:
All-out Attack (double) maneuver
1) Main - Full
2) Offhand - Full (with ambidexterity)
... and then ...
3) Main or Offhand - Full (Extra Attack)

EDIT EDIT:
I think I saw someone say that Extra Attack only gives an attack to a weapon unused for that maneuver. So I think in my above example the Extra Attack advantage gets negated ... grrr rules and stuff and confusion, haha.

Last edited by jtsmith1287; 11-08-2013 at 12:33 PM.
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Old 11-08-2013, 12:39 PM   #20
vierasmarius
 
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Default Re: 4 swings?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jtsmith1287 View Post
Ok wait ... so say we've got a dual wielder with ambidexterity. We could do an all out attack (double) and get a full attack with main and offhand, and then with extra attack a third full attack? Would that be correct? No rapid strikes or anything like that.

EDIT:
All-out Attack (double) maneuver
1) Main - Full
2) Offhand - Full (with ambidexterity)
... and then ...
3) Main or Offhand - Full (Extra Attack)

EDIT EDIT:
I think I saw someone say that Extra Attack only gives an attack to a weapon unused for that maneuver. So I think in my above example the Extra Attack advantage gets negated ... grrr rules and stuff and confusion, haha.
It actually works fine. You use All Out (Double) to make two attacks with your main weapon, and the Extra Attack for your offhand weapon. For single-weapon specialists, the Multi-Strike (+20%) enhancement is very common for Extra Attack, letting them strike multiple times with one weapon.
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