Killing Superman [Powers]

[AlexanderHowl]

Neutralize (Cosmic, +300%) works on any source, it cannot be much clearer than that. The Cosmic modifier always breaks the rules, so why should it not break the rules in this case? Of course, it is up to the GM whether to allow the ability, but that applies to any ability.

Anyway, it is possible to effectively permanently neutralize all of the relevant abilities of most characters by using Affliction 1 (Attribute Penalty, -20 ST, -20 DX, -20 IQ, and -20 HT, +600%; Cosmic, Irresistable Attack, +300%; Extended Duration, Permanent, +300%; Malediction 3, +200%) [150]. Anyone that fails the resistance roll becomes a vegetable for the rest of their short lives, whatever their other abilities (though Mind Control with Cosmic would help with the resistance roll). And it is cheaper than the Neutralize build, though you do not get to steal the abilities of your victims.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Anyway, it is possible to effectively permanently neutralize all of the relevant abilities of most characters by using Affliction 1 (Attribute Penalty, -20 ST, -20 DX, -20 IQ, and -20 HT, +600%; Cosmic, Irresistable Attack, +300%; Extended Duration, Permanent, +300%; Malediction 3, +200%) [150]. Anyone that fails the resistance roll becomes a vegetable for the rest of their short lives, whatever their other abilities (though Mind Control with Cosmic would help with the resistance roll). And it is cheaper than the Neutralize build, though you do not get to steal the abilities of your victims.

Of course, one has to wonder why spend an extra +445% when you could replace that with Affliction 1 (Heart Attack +300%; Negated Advantages, No Heart and Unkillable 3 +155%; Cosmic, Irresistible Attack +300%; Malediction 3 +200%) [106]. I mean, if you're going to turn them into a vegetable permanently, you might as well just kill them and get it over with (particularly with that actually costing less). Granted, it won't work against Superman unless you just spam it while crit-fishing (Supes probably has sky-high HT). Actually, now that I look at it, Irresistible Attack has no point being there, seeing as Malediction bypasses DR already; did you perhaps mean No Dice Roll Required, so that no matter what you roll on your Will roll, it's never worse than MoS 0?

[AlexanderHowl]

Irresistable Attack circumvents any advantages that would add to HT, such as DR with Malediction-Proof.

[aesir23]

Basically, the only problem with all of these optimized power builds is that they're not very fun in play.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by aesir23

Basically, the only problem with all of these optimized power builds is that they're not very fun in play.

Agreed; "I Win" buttons can work in stories, where the author can contrive to find ways to deprive the character (although it's best if the ability is held by an antagonist, and a good deal of the encounter is the protagonist trying to work a way around it), or even keep its existence something of a secret. See Worm for some examples, particularly on antagonists. In an RPG, they're markedly less interesting.

[Anders]

Which is why I wouldn't give PCs access to save-or-die spells. They always use them on the primary antagonist and that's just boring.

[smurf]

Originally Posted by aesir23

Basically, the only problem with all of these optimized power builds is that they're not very fun in play.

Originally Posted by Varyon

Agreed; "I Win" buttons can work in stories, where the author can contrive to find ways to deprive the character (although it's best if the ability is held by an antagonist, and a good deal of the encounter is the protagonist trying to work a way around it), or even keep its existence something of a secret. See Worm for some examples, particularly on antagonists. In an RPG, they're markedly less interesting.

After reading the last 3 pages it is a similar conclusion.

The problem with Superman is it is a written character. Even his name sake in Invincible could be beaten to a pulp.

All characters are not flawless and it's nigh impossible to create one.

[aesir23]

Originally Posted by smurf

All characters are not flawless and it's nigh impossible to create one.

And if you did, what stories could you tell about them?

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by aesir23

And if you did, what stories could you tell about them?

Well, explicit slash fanfic stories, obviously.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Neutralize (Cosmic, +300%) works on any source, it cannot be much clearer than that.

PP23 is much clearer:

There is no “Anti-Anti-Psi” power, no version of Neutralize that works on it, and so on.

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

The Cosmic modifier always breaks the rules, so why should it not break the rules in this case?

We agree it breaks SOME rules. We need to keep in mind that Cosmic never breaks ALL of them. The rule it breaks is the need to specify a single power source that it neutralizes.

Even if (as I'm arguing) this is limited to all the possible abilities you could design Neutralize for, that's still an incredibly useful rule to ignore.

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Anyway, it is possible to effectively permanently neutralize all of the relevant abilities of most characters by using Affliction 1 (Attribute Penalty, -20 ST, -20 DX, -20 IQ, and -20 HT, +600%; Cosmic, Irresistable Attack, +300%; Extended Duration, Permanent, +300%; Malediction 3, +200%) [150].

I wouldn't bother bloating the cost with DX/ST/HT penalties, bringing IQ to 0 is the critical thing (make them non-sentient)

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Anyone that fails the resistance roll becomes a vegetable for the rest of their short lives

Well... or at least until someone comes along with Healing (Afflictions Only) to cancel the Affliction or Affliction (IQ+1) to give enough bonuses compared to the penalty to bring them up to at least IQ+1, at which point they can start earning character points and buying IQ back up from Sentient to Sapient.

For gods and the like (obviously not the 'most characters' you're talking about...) one way to survive a failed save against "Attribute Penalty" Affliction without turning into a vegetable (you really only need to target IQ, the other 3 seem unnecessary, you just need to reduce someone to IQ 0 to make them non-sentient) would be to take (P13) an IQ bonus for "Attributes as Abilities" and by being part of a Cosmic Power, the P21 protection would apply:

abilities that aren’t subject to the countermeasures that affect wild
advantages.
..
abilities ignore the things that normally block, shut down, or nullify wild versions of those traits,
..
nothing can take away the wielder’s power – his abilities work on any world he visits,are present in any body he occupies, and so on.

I'm sure you'll bring up this part I omitted from the above:

unless those countermeasures are themselves cosmic;
e.g.,
only a cosmic barrier can block cosmic Insubstantiality

The way that works is, as best I know...
*Crushing Attack (Persistent, Wall) stops normal folk
**Insubstantial guys ignore it
*Crushing Attack (Persistent, Wall, Insubstantial Only) stops Insubstantial folk
**Insubstantial (Cosmic, Adds Utility) ignore this
*Crushing Attack (Persistent, Wall, Insubstantial Only, Cosmic: Adds Utility) stops the Cosmic Insubstantial

In this case you have Adds Utility on Crushing Attack cancelling out "Adds Utility" on Insubstantiality.

I avoided using "Defense or counter measure" for Innate Attack because that says "defensive trait provides its usual benefits against offensive abilities modified with the Cosmic enhancement" but even if we viewed "wall" attacks as being "defensive", I don't really see insubstantiality as being "offensive".

Now here is a similar progression with Neutralize vs Psi...
*you can use Crushing Attack (Telekinesis -10%) but someone with Neutralize touches you: you fail your save and can't use it anymore
*If you took Cosmic: Defensive +50% on Crushing Attack, then you don't need to bother making a save vs Neutralize, you're immune to it
*If Neutralize took Cosmic: Adds Utility, then it should be able to work against Cosmic:Defensive psi abilities.

Part of the problem (because we need to actually ascribe names to "Cosmic" modifiers) is that both Neutralize and Crushing Attack are attacks. There is no "defensive trait" so "Defense or countermeasure" might be off the table for either of them.

P21 "nothing can take away the wielder’s power"
P101 "handle it as if neither side had Cosmic"

What I think needs clarification is if P101 is referring to Cosmic as a power modifier, or the "Cosmic options" which that power modifier gives a discount on.

What does the power modifier do, for example, other than give that discount?

Is P21's "nothing can take away"...

1) a free benefit above wild advantages?
2) simply reiterating the +0% that wild advantages and "No Countermeasures" powers like Elemental/Nature enjoy?
3) assuming the 50% will be spent on Cosmic: Defensive or Countermeasure?

I'm thinking "no" on #3 because we're given an example of paying 250 instead of 300 on irresistible attack. P101 specifies you subtract 50 from the TOTAL cost of cosmic modifiers (not from each one) so you only ever say 50%, not 100% for 2, 150% for 3, etc.

Right before "Required Disadvantages" on P21 is also this important part:

work normally against attacks and opposing abilities enhanced with more expensive Cosmic options.

Neutralize is an attack.
+300% is a "more expensive cosmic option"

This means you IGNORE the cosmic option as if it was not there.

The way Neutralize works without the +300% is being limited to a single power source.

That single power source has to be one of the -5% ones.

Ergo: Cosmic powers can't be neutralized by the +300%, because Neutralize is treated as non-cosmic, and thus reverts to one of the allowed power sources.

The only way I could see it working is if you had something like:

Telekinesis (Psychokinesis -10% Cosmic +50%)

Basically if you had TWO power modifiers. But it would not work if you just had Telekinesis (Cosmic +50%).

P28's "Stacking Power Modifiers" box states "No advantage can have multiple power modifiers." but there is at least one exception to it, which is Super/Elemental listed in parenthesis immediately after.

Cosmic+other Power Modifier is NOT listed as an exception, but P27 has weird wording which seems to hint at it: "Cosmic powers add +50% to their power modifier."

First I will note: the same word gets reused in many different contexts in GURPS... such as P124 you could have Chaos (source: Moral) and Cosmic (source: Cosmic).

Compare:
P124 "the only counter measure it faces is itself"
P135 "Neutralize, with Power Theft and possibly Cosmic"

Vampirism can take the Cosmic +300% option on it's Neutralize... but it would still not be able to affect abilities which are part of the "Cosmic" power, because it's source is merely bio/mag/psi/super.

Yet even if Neutralize (Super; Cosmic +50%; Godlike Tricks: Unrestricted Powers +250%) was used... P21 kicks in for the save:

work normally against attacks and opposing abilities enhanced with more expensive Cosmic options

So this means you don't just have 50 cancel out 50... 50 cancels out the entire 300 and you're left with Neutralize (Super) which can't target non-super abilities, and raw-cosmic-only powers (which are not using "Stacking Power Modifiers") aren't classified as Super.

A big point of confusion is simply that Powers has clashy statements.

P25: "Cosmic powers can neither be blocked nor have countermeasures."
P124: "the only counter measure it faces is itself"

Would 124 mean "because I can shut down my own abilities" or refer to "enemies who also have abilities with the cosmic power modifier" ? I'm not sure. If it's the latter then it seems there's an unavoidable conflict here.

All I know is with cosmic canceling out ALL COSMIC OPTIONS, Neutralize in it's native form MUST specify an acceptable source with -5%, meaning cosmic is still out.

I think 'countermeasures' probably refers to Affliction (Negative Advantage) like you statted up, since that can affect wild abilities and doesn't need to specify a source in it's unaltered form.

Originally Posted by Varyon

Negated Advantages, No Heart and Unkillable 3 +155%

B61 "No Vitals" mentions you don't have vitals "that attackers can target for extra damage" but given that Heart Attack isn't actually targeting/damaging, it makes me wonder if it actually does protect against it.

Luckily B429 clarifies it does...

Why are you paying for the 5 points for negating ALL of No Vitals though? If it's only No Heart shouldn't that be cheaper?

Testicle Tuck is a perk they cut out in Bio-Tech so maybe "No Heart" should be worth 4 points and only +4% to negate w/ Affliction?

Originally Posted by Varyon

Irresistible Attack has no point being there, seeing as Malediction bypasses DR already

Malediction would not bypass Resistant or Protected Power though, so I expect it's there for that reason.

Plus it is possible to get Malediction-proof DR (Psionic-Powers introduced it), in which case you would need Irresistable Attack to get past such DR.