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Old 02-19-2020, 07:07 PM   #41
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: What's a reasonable price for Weapon Master (two unrelated weapons)?

Personally, I don't think the requirements that the two weapons be "used together" or even that the weapons in the small or large classes have a thematic link is really meant for balance so much as it is meant for flavor. With that in mind, I don't think having two more-or-less completely-unrelated weapons (such as Recurve Bow and Heavy Spear*) for [25] is really problematic unless you, as GM, want to retain the "flavor" of the Advantage by having there be a thematic link (sword and board, knightly weapons, ninja weapons, all swords, etc) of some sort.

*I find it slightly annoying that every single individual weapon listed under Weapon Master is also the name of a skill. Really - main-gauche, rapier, saber, smallsword, broadsword, mace, shield and lance are all the names of weapon skills as well as individual weapons, with the partial exception of mace (for which the equivalent skill is called Axe/Mace). For the longest time, I honestly was uncertain if Weapon Master (Single Weapon) was meant to apply to a single weapon design (Thrusting Broadsword, Katana, etc) or a single weapon skill.
As an unrelated aside, I just realized there are eight "sword" skills in GURPS - Knife, Shortsword, Broadsword, Two-Handed Sword, Main-Gauche, Smallsword, Rapier, and Saber. Oh, and sword-like weapons that happen to have prongs instead use Jitte/Sai, and those with side-handles use Tonfa, so that's almost like having 10 "sword" skills.
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Old 02-19-2020, 07:37 PM   #42
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: What's a reasonable price for Weapon Master (two unrelated weapons)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
I find it slightly annoying that every single individual weapon listed under Weapon Master is also the name of a skill. Really - main-gauche, rapier, saber, smallsword, broadsword, mace, shield and lance are all the names of weapon skills as well as individual weapons, with the partial exception of mace (for which the equivalent skill is called Axe/Mace). For the longest time, I honestly was uncertain if Weapon Master (Single Weapon) was meant to apply to a single weapon design (Thrusting Broadsword, Katana, etc) or a single weapon skill.
That skills/weapons have overlap in titles is a general annoyance since then we need to specify (weapon) or (skill) sometimes in conversation where we might lack context.

Based on the 2-word precedent of Axe/Mace on B278 for example...
"Broadsword" could be called "Broadswords and Cavalry Sabers"
"Knife" could've been called "Daggers and Knives"
"Shortsword" could've been called "Baton and Shortsword"
"Smallsword" could've been called "Short Staffs and Smallswords"
"Spear" could've been called "Javelins and Spears"

Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be any solve to rename for the one-weapon-per-skill versions (Force Sword, Garrotte, Kusari, Lance, Monowhire Whip, Rapier, Saber, Whip) so I'm not sure what naming difference could be used there.

Perhaps the equipment names could be made more extensive?

Saber comes to mind... B273's version under the skill of that name, to tell it apart from the Cavalry Saber on 271 (under Broadsword) it could be renamed "Non-Cavalry Saber".

The Flail (B272) skill including Morningstar/Nunchaku while the "two-handed flail" (B274) includes the "flail" is also not the neatest... perhaps change the 1st to "One-Handed Flails" and the equipment to "Big Flail"?
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Old 02-19-2020, 07:48 PM   #43
Kalzazz
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Default Re: What's a reasonable price for Weapon Master (two unrelated weapons)?

I never read together as 'you must physically be touching both of them at the same time while in use'
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Old 02-19-2020, 08:17 PM   #44
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: What's a reasonable price for Weapon Master (two unrelated weapons)?

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Originally Posted by Kalzazz View Post
I never read together as 'you must physically be touching both of them at the same time while in use'
That's not what I mean, just that both could be simultaneously active, which is useful if you're wanting to dual-wield them simultaneously, but not necessitating it.

A ready maneuver to switch between single-weapon 20-point versions of Weapon Master (sword) and Master (shield) as Alternative Abilities would be pretty gruesome
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Old 02-19-2020, 09:15 PM   #45
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: What's a reasonable price for Weapon Master (two unrelated weapons)?

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Originally Posted by Plane View Post
That skills/weapons have overlap in titles is a general annoyance since then we need to specify (weapon) or (skill) sometimes in conversation where we might lack context.
Eh, I'm fine with the skill names being what they are, even though there is often one weapon in the table with exactly the same name. The annoying bit with Weapon Master is that the authors opted to exclusively pick those very weapons. Consolidating the weapon skills - say, have a general Sword skill that covers all the sword-class weapons, with the possible exception of those that are Reach C (knives and the like) - would be worthwhile, but a topic for a different thread.
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Old 02-19-2020, 11:13 PM   #46
Kalzazz
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Default Re: What's a reasonable price for Weapon Master (two unrelated weapons)?

I most certainly wouldn't want to spend a turn switching between WM Sword and WM Bow

The fact a character can very easily use a bow one round and a sword the next (by fast drawing a sword) or a sword one round and bow the next (by having bow in one hand, sword the other, then dropping the sword) further fuels my sense they have sufficient togetherness

Edit - in I think at least 95% of combats where a character has used sword and bow there has been a smooth transition between the two with no wasted actions that could be used for a ready manuever
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Old 02-20-2020, 10:18 AM   #47
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: What's a reasonable price for Weapon Master (two unrelated weapons)?

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Originally Posted by Kalzazz View Post
I most certainly wouldn't want to spend a turn switching between WM Sword and WM Bow

The fact a character can very easily use a bow one round and a sword the next (by fast drawing a sword) or a sword one round and bow the next (by having bow in one hand, sword the other, then dropping the sword) further fuels my sense they have sufficient togetherness
Any weapons could have such a togetherness in theory, but generally a 2H weapon does not have "I need to use it as the same time as another weapon" relationship with any other weapon.

I could also see a weapon master who fights non-continuously and is okay taking some time to switch between a sword and a bow.

I could see for example, Xena: Warrior Princess having both, but perhaps as Alternative Abilities where she pauses while getting into "I'm firing an arrow" mode.
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Old 02-20-2020, 12:21 PM   #48
Prince Charon
 
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Default Re: What's a reasonable price for Weapon Master (two unrelated weapons)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
Any weapons could have such a togetherness in theory, but generally a 2H weapon does not have "I need to use it as the same time as another weapon" relationship with any other weapon.

I could also see a weapon master who fights non-continuously and is okay taking some time to switch between a sword and a bow.

I could see for example, Xena: Warrior Princess having both, but perhaps as Alternative Abilities where she pauses while getting into "I'm firing an arrow" mode.
Xena didn't use fire arrows all that often (though I think she used them occasionally), so it would be 'shooting and arrow' or 'loosing an arrow' far more than firing one.
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Old 02-20-2020, 12:32 PM   #49
Kalzazz
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Default Re: What's a reasonable price for Weapon Master (two unrelated weapons)?

For Xena I would totally let her buy sword and chakram for 25 points

I simply cannot fathom the idea of a GURPS character who wants to spend a action switching things around like that in the middle of a fighy, if they have that much time to waste they clearly aren't in a fight
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Old 02-20-2020, 12:36 PM   #50
Aldric
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Default Re: What's a reasonable price for Weapon Master (two unrelated weapons)?

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Originally Posted by Kalzazz View Post
For Xena I would totally let her buy sword and chakram for 25 points
I'm almost sure she would already have a higher level of WM.
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