Quadruped Golem question

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Plane

Nice catch, didn't know it was adapted from earlier tables.

Only 14 of the of Golems came from that page and most have had their HT freaked to where it was higher then in the table (generally by only 1 point)

Originally Posted by Plane

So how much of the pricing discrepancy is corrected when we add the HP column (exceeding default HP from ST) and pay the 2/level for it?

I am doing the golems that appeared in both sources in the Golems GURPSwiki page using my little calc set up to make putting the point totals a lot easier.

Generally adding in the HP is making the golems more expensive then those on the table. The Wax golem (i'm doing the golems in both tables to get those out of the way) now comes in at 154, 4 points more expensive then the table.

[Celjabba]

Originally Posted by Plane

Nice catch, didn't know it was adapted from earlier tables.

So how much of the pricing discrepancy is corrected when we add the HP column (exceeding default HP from ST) and pay the 2/level for it?

probably none, although I don't have Magic Item 3 here to check.

most of the discrepancies are on the 'too cheap' side, so adding feature won't help.

[Plane]

One other thing we should keep in mind, since this sounds like a 3e book (HP based on HT?) is that DR was 3/level in 3e instead of 5/level in 4e. Could that influence his calculations?

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Plane

One other thing we should keep in mind, since this sounds like a 3e book (HP based on HT?) is that DR was 3/level in 3e instead of 5/level in 4e. Could that influence his calculations?

IIRC From the off the envelope calculations we did perviously it seems he forgot the DR entirely. But I realized that Skill points in excess of 10 also cost points. The Adamant's 14 is [4] or 8 energy. Maybe that is where the hiccup is coming from - he did the skill calculation wrong.

Going through the list I found other piece of weirdness - Gold Golem's primary energy (510) is correct (he factored in the DR 4) but the Q energy is messed up (302 vs the 312 the math gives you) So I have no idea how he did the math as it doesn't appear to be consistent from one golem to the next.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by maximara

Gold Golem's primary energy (510) is correct (he factored in the DR 4) but the Q energy is messed up (302 vs the 312 the math gives you)

In a case like that, the simplest explanation might just be that it's a typo rather than a miscalculation. 1 and 0 are far apart if using the numbers above the letters on a keyboard, but if he was one of those guys who enters numbers using the 3x3 keypad, 1 and 0 are adjacent.

[Celjabba]

Originally Posted by maximara

IIRC From the off the envelope calculations we did perviously it seems he forgot the DR entirely. But I realized that Skill points in excess of 10 also cost points. The Adamant's 14 is [4] or 8 energy. Maybe that is where the hiccup is coming from - he did the skill calculation wrong.

Going through the list I found other piece of weirdness - Gold Golem's primary energy (510) is correct (he factored in the DR 4) but the Q energy is messed up (302 vs the 312 the math gives you) So I have no idea how he did the math as it doesn't appear to be consistent from one golem to the next.

That's strange, I get 302 for Q gold ?
Is the 312 calculated from the table values, or including stuff from MI3 ?

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Celjabba

That's strange, I get 302 for Q gold ?
Is the 312 calculated from the table values, or including stuff from MI3 ?

The table now shows the work (for some Golems) so if I do screw up you can spot it.

For the base cost we have [100]+[60]+[10]+[-10]+[20] and yes I did mess up on the bace calculation - it should be 490 not 510 base.

The -99 points is correct (160*-.4)-35) wich is -198 energy or 292

On a side a back of the envelope calculation on the smaller versions of the Adamant indicates the author may have use GURPS Technomancer's smaller golem calculation:

""Smaller golems can be created by using less energy and material. Energy cost, time to build the body, ST, hit points and DR are all multiplied by the golem's scale factor; e.g., by 1/2 for a 1/2-scale golem. The golem's weight and material cost scale with the cube of its scale; e.g., a 1/2-scale golem weighs 1/2 as much and requires 1/2 the materials. Round fractional statistics down. " (GURPS Technomanser pg 19)

So SM-1 is 3/4 the stats of a full sized (assuming all the golems are 2 yards aka 6’ on their longest measurement ) and SM-2 is 1/4. If you want to go to SM-3 would be 1/3, SM-4 is 1/4 and so on.

[Celjabba]

Originally Posted by maximara

The table now shows the work (for some Golems) so if I do screw up you can spot it.

For the base cost we have [100]+[60]+[10]+[-10]+[20] and yes I did mess up on the bace calculation - it should be 490 not 510 base.

The -99 points is correct (160*-.4)-35) wich is -198 energy or 292

For Gold (SM-0), I have according to the excel sheet I posted above :

ST 20
biped cp cost : 100 = (20-10)*10
quadruped cp cost : 60 = (20-10)*(10*.60)

DX 13
biped cp cost : 60 = (13-10) * 20
quadruped cp cost : 36 = (13-10) * (20*.60)

IQ 9
cp cost = -20 = (9-10) * 20

HT 14
cp cost = 40 = (14-10) * 10

DR 4
cp cost = 20 = 4 * 5

Skill 10
cp cost = 10 = 10 * 1

Disadvantages
biped cp cost : 0
quadruped cp cost : -40 (-30 NFM, -10 Horizontal)

biped energy cost = 250 + 2* ( 100+60 -20+40+20+10 -0 -80 ) = 510
quadruped energy cost = 250 + 2* ( 60+36 -20+40+20+10 -40 -80 ) = 302

which perfectly match the number in the table in the original post, so I don't understand.


note : -80 in the energy cost calculation = -5 ST, -1 DX, +2 IQ, -4 HT, -10 Skill point, to balance the base clay golem stats

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Celjabba

Disadvantages
biped cp cost : 0
quadruped cp cost : -40 (-30 NFM, -10 Horizontal)

biped energy cost = 250 + 2* ( 100+60 -20+40+20+10 -0 -80 ) = 510
quadruped energy cost = 250 + 2* ( 60+36 -20+40+20+10 -40 -80 ) = 302

As I mentioned before the author is using a nonstandard cost for quadruped which is [-35] in the Basic Set (pg 263)

Also lets keep the math simple: 100+60 = 160. Times this by -0.4 and subtract the 35. The result is -99 points or -198 energy which makes quadruped golem per the Basic Set rules 312 energy.

Looking around I found this:
"A Quadruped (by definition) has four legs, giving him the 5 point version of "Extra Legs". This lets them move at full Move even if they lose a leg, with only the loss of two causing them to fall down and gives them two extra limbs to use in play which they cannot use it to manipulate."

So of the sake of a measly 10 energy points the author was effectively crippling his Quadruped golems - they loose a leg they fall over unable to move. Brilliant This is a classic example of the old adage Penny wise, Pound foolish and no good explanation for doing it that way is even given. It is that last part that grinds my gears as the author goes along as if not having Extra Legs is no big deal.

I should point out that at 130 the absolute minimum a single mage is looking at putting in at least 4 lunar months and 10 days into the casting. The mage would be better off finding a few fellow mages with the Golem spell then "weakening" the quadruped golem's functionality. Another way a mage can save time enchanting a golem that is above the 130 minimum is use the Engineer skill to improve articulation-TL1, animation (includes mechanical articulation)-TL3, perception-TL5, and comprehension-TL4

At a fundamental level this is -5% per TL so TL2 improvements are 90% of energy cost, TL5 is 75%, and TL9 is 55%.

[Celjabba]

OK

I agree that using quadrupled instead of NFM + horiz make sense, but I wasn't understanding that you were doing so in your calculations.
I was using the article build, and getting the article numbers (with the exception of the adamants, uraniums and a few others golem that are wrong in the article) so I wasn't understanding your numbers.
It is an easy fix to add extra legs to each build.