Question on SW Protocol Droids and Languages

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

Yup, in this sort of a setting the Accessory Perk is probably the best way to work this.

However not sure it covers Cultural/Xeno-Adaptability.

You've got storage space left on that C9 computer. Use it for Cultural Familiarities.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by talonthehand

A couple things. First, C3PO wasn't built on a point budget. He costs however much he costs. That may or may not apply to the original poster. Secondly...in game effects matters more than how the character got the trait. If C3PO is capable of translating all the species in a meeting of the senate on the fly, then Modular Abilities doesn't cover it, even if downloading better matches the justification for it.

Sure he can. For 6 points per slot, he can get nearly anything. For 5 points per character point in a slot, he can get point rearrangement that is not costly, is not slow, and is not subject to external interference. If you want, you can enhance the cost per slot with reduced time until it takes place instantly.

Though I'd also point out that C3PO is not going to be able to translate everything simultaneously. He has only one set of vocalizers, so he can speak only one language at a time. He has eyes placed like human eyes, and we've never seen him read two languages at once. And he seems to listen to one person, or a small group of people, at a time. All this is because he's designed to interact with humans and other species roughly comparable to humans, and they interact that way; that is, he's a protocol droid. So all this talk of being able to communicate in a vast number of languages simultaneously doesn't mean anything, because he isn't going to be doing it simultaneously, but sequentially.

I suppose you could imagine that he could record every sound in the senate chamber, and go back and play it back and track one conversation in one langauge later. But (a) that's still sequential, (b) Threepio clearly does not have Eidetic Memory, and (c) really, if I were running a consultative body, I wouldn't allow droids to be built that were so splendidly designed for espionage, or let them in the doors.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

Most Advantages don't make those distinctions either. Take Absolute Timing as an example....

Yes, and therefore Absolute Timing has to depend solely on processes that normal human beings can carry out. Maybe a computer, or a god, or a time elemental, can do it by some exotic or supernatural means; but such means aren't required. And similarly, it has to be possible to acquire Absolute Timing by purely human means of learning; it can't require having a chronometric chip implanted, or being blessed by Chronos, or being a mutant.

So I think there's a dilemma here:

1. Either being Omnilingual can grant you access to the stated six million forms of communication, and since there's no way a human could acquire that capability by ordinary human means, it's not a mundane trait; or

2. Being Omnilingual is a mundane trait, one that can be acquired by ordinary (perhaps cinematic) human learning and exercised by normal human beings, and thus it cannot be sufficient to grant access to six million forms of communication.

I prefer the latter, since I created it as a way to model normal (if cinematic) human beings.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

I think this response is useful:

Well, in the first place, the original poster was primarily interested in what rules represent the specific capability that Threepio has, which was "fluent in six million forms of communication." Their question was how to model being fluent in six million forms of communication in GURPS terms. They made it clear that they wanted the actual six million by saying "I'm trying to think of a way to model this without spending 24,000,020 points (Voice + Language talent + 6 million languages at 4 points each)." If all they wanted was to be able to talk with anyone they met in the game narrative, they wouldn't have had any reason to do that calculation. So giving them an advantage that doesn't grant the literal six million, and whose definition explicitly states that it does not involve knowing vast numbers of languages, is not addressing the actual question that was originally asked.

In the second place, the OP clearly does care how many points the ability costs. And that's not unreasonable. Even if the translator is an NPC, buying it as an Ally is going to be very pricy if it pays 24,000,000 points and change for its translation ability. And I think you'd better be looking at taking it as an Ally, given how ready Threepio and Artoo were to deceive and manipulate Luke when he was legally their master; you want a droid that's loyal enough not to take advantage of your trust. (For that matter, Luke's comment on Artoo was "I've never seen such loyalty in a droid.")

And in the third place, Phil's comment is clearly meant to advise against paying a huge number of extra points for buying a narrative element that doesn't actually do anything game mechanically. But I don't see that it bears so readily on my advice to spend FEWER points on buying a different way of doing something.

Addendum: This does raise the question of what Omnilingual+Language Talent buys that's worth 20 points more than a suitable Modular Ability (setting aside the issue of alien languages for the moment).

On one hand, they aren't the same kind of ability and can't necessarily be directly compared. MA is an ability that exists in the game world; it's mediated by things like computer chips or reading one's own genes or books of spells or the favor of gods. But Omnilingual is a meta-ability, a convention of narrative that a player is allowed to buy. It's akin to Common Sense or Gizmo or Serendipity or Signature Gear; it affects, not the world that gives rise to the narrative, but the narrative as such, directly. In this case, it says that when the PC meets someone who speaks language X, language X will just happen to be one that they studied and learned in the course of their polyglot past, and that this will be true retroactively—which means that it's kind of a Schrödinger Advantage, one that becomes defined when it's used; there is never any fixed list of the languages the PC does and doesn't know. It's a narrative convention that you pay points for.

But on the other hand, because it's a narrative convention, it's available to any character to whom the GM allows it, including totally mundane characters. MA is an exotic advantage, and normal humans can't have it at all; and in some campaigns, MA will be part of a power and take a power modifier that gives ways to make it stop working, whether anti-super technology or no-mana areas or your god being really angry with you. A normal human can't have an exotic advantage; their choice is buying languages the old-fashioned way, or (if the GM allows) taking Omnilingual, or going without, and of those, they might think Omnilingual was the best deal. And even a super or a mage might find a narrative convention that can't be taken away somewhat preferable to a spell or a power that might stop working under particular conditions. Though that advantage doesn't much apply to Threepio, whose particular MA is a function of his physical and informational structure, not a "power."

Really, if we didn't have that phrase "over six million forms of communication," and if the OP hadn't specifically asked how to do that, I would think Omnilingual was perfectly okay. Though including alien and droid languages still seems to make it cost way too much.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by whswhs

"Fetishize" is an abusive and indeed potentially insulting word. It presumes that I do not have a rational basis for my position.

This is like the third time this has come up, each time you've proposed Modular over Omni, even after someone brings up the limit with Modular.

I just find it interesting that you take such a hard line stance on how "limiting" Omni needs to be.

Personally I allow Omni* work as advertised: "...designed for heroes like the super-spy who conveniently turns out to be fluent in every tongue he encounters."

I do keep in that there might be some languages they won't know. But if they really want know every possible language, I point them to Xeno and call it a day. If someone were to go the Modular route, they'd run into it's limitations regularly enough, but not overly so.

Name one time in the source material that you saw a character do that.

Can't. But also don't care or need to. The limit has been put forth for why Omni may be the superior choice. Some will agree that Modular is better, some Omni.

It depends on what I'm doing and my needs, but if I'm creating a character that can, without finagling anything, understand almost any language he encounters, then I go with Omni/Xeno.

But if I'm really looking to shave points and am willing to grit my teeth over having to 'swap out slots" I go with Modular. or if slot swapping is the thing the character does (say a chiphead in a C-Punk game), then I happily go with Modular.

* Actually in my last game I ran with Omni as a 10 point leveled advantage. Level 1 gave Broken comprehension in all "common" languages, level gave Accented, and 3 gave Native. If they wanted 'uncommon' languages it was double. I had Language Talent let them spend 1-2 unused points to immediately acquire 'rare' languages at Broken. One PC went for it, it worked fine. He never felt he'd overpaid for a 'useless' ability even though it never had the constant utility of far cheaper Advantages.

And in any case, once again, why is that (at most) rarely used ability so vital that it justifies spending an extra 100 character points on it?

Omni + Language talent only costs 50, and in my opinion that's overcharging for the use Threepio manages to eek out of it.

Originally Posted by whswhs

Yes, and therefore Absolute Timing has to depend solely on processes that normal human beings can carry out. Maybe a computer, or a god, or a time elemental, can do it by some exotic or supernatural means; but such means aren't required. And similarly, it has to be possible to acquire Absolute Timing by purely human means of learning; it can't require having a chronometric chip implanted, or being blessed by Chronos, or being a mutant.

Then explain the upgrade to Absolute Timing, Chronolocation.

So I think there's a dilemma here:

I see no dilemma. The ability works as the GM wishes it to, in the manner they and the Player agree upon.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

I see no dilemma. The ability works as the GM wishes it to, in the manner they and the Player agree upon.

Then you don't need any game rules at all, and you have no reason to take part in any discussion of how the rules of GURPS work.

As for "fetishizing," let me point out that you persist in telling me I'm wrong. That spear has two pointy ends. But I haven't been poking you with the other one; I've been offering reasoned arguments as to why you're wrong. Would you rather I just dismissed your position as emotionallly biased?

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

Omni + Language talent only costs 50, and in my opinion that's overcharging for the use Threepio manages to eek out of it.

Well, then, maybe it's not the right ability for him to have.

[cvannrederode]

As the OP, I'd like to weigh in on a few points:

I'm going with the modular abilities route, since it (IMO) gels best with the feel of 3PO's ability, and his status as being a droid with a computer brain. Not to mention the fluff text in Legends that lists his model as having extra memory to store languages and swap them in and out quickly during use, as well as having training/programming in the ability to adapt ones he knows to ones he doesn't. Having to speak more than two languages besides Basic doesn't seem to come up. Plus I would argue that 3PO could know a few languages besides his native one without the modular abilities. (That is, having spent points directly on the language). Binary most definitely with Shyriiwook a distinct possibility by the time of Jedi.

Also, it's been asked about whether or not it ever came up that a 3PO unit failed understand a language. I just checked the beginning of Empire, and when they're listening to the probe droid, 3PO mentions that "Sir, I am fluent in over six million forms of communication. This signal is not used by the Alliance. It could be an Imperial code." He does not offer a translation or any insight into the content of the signal. I would rule that as him not understanding the language, and his linguistics skill ruling it a possible Imperial code by process of elimination.

Regardless, it all boils down to what a player and GM work out as best for the character's ability and style of play. In our case it really doesn't matter, since the unit in question isn't a PC. It's barely a NPC, the group just bought a translator droid on Tatooine when we needed one. I'm trying to give it a little bit of flesh (so to speak) so it doesn't spend the campaign in the storage locker on the ship.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by cvannrederode

Regardless, it all boils down to what a player and GM work out as best for the character's ability and style of play. In our case it really doesn't matter, since the unit in question isn't a PC. It's barely a NPC, the group just bought a translator droid on Tatooine when we needed one. I'm trying to give it a little bit of flesh (so to speak) so it doesn't spend the campaign in the storage locker on the ship.

In that case, I would encourage you to remember that droids, even droids that are property, can have goals and agenda of their own, and may mislead the people they are working for. Look at Artoo and Threepio claiming to Luke that they aren't sure who Leia is, or Artoo taking off into the desert to find Obi-wan, after he and Threepio fast-talk Luke into removing his restraining bolt!

The Basic Set has a table of loyalty modifiers for unfree servants that might be useful.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by whswhs

Then you don't need any game rules at all, and you have no reason to take part in any discussion of how the rules of GURPS work.

Not quite. I just don't see the needless split you do in this Advantage. It works, I'm not interested in deciding 'why it works in a certain way' for all time. Whether Omni is magical, digital, divine, learned skill, serendipitous event, etc. I'm not concerned with weighing it down inherently.

You are, and I'm just drilling down into that. To see why. And, as it happens here, we have fundamentally different veiws on how Advantages are structured

I note you've skipped right past answering why Chronolocation is "mundane" while it certainly remains outside a normal humans remit though.... so maybe you disagree that it's mundane and don't want to address it? Or is it something else?

As for "fetishizing," let me point out that you persist in telling me I'm wrong.

Actually I usually don't, likewise I'm pretty sure this is the first time I've tilted at this windmill with you and I didn't even jump in on this ride until page three... But, I note others have gone round with on this specific topic at least twice before, with you coming down in favor of Modular every time.

I just find it odd is all.

Originally Posted by whswhs

Well, then, maybe it's not the right ability for him to have.

I disagree that even the possible low price* of Modular is right. He certainly get's far less use out of it per session than I'd be happy with spending on such an ability.

* If you decide he needs not be able to read/write and speak in the languages simultaneously you can drop the cost down to 18 points. Now's it's feeling kinda "right". Although, to be fair it both feels low and too high, too low in the "infinite languages' possibility and too high in the "the moment three people that speak different languages (and none are his native lang) start yelling at him he blows a fuse".

Which seriously? Happens a lot in the real world.




And a few things I skipped past before that might alter some thinking on this subject. or not:

Originally Posted by whswhs

For MA (CB), you need a society where there are computers, and AIs, and downloadable skills and languages, and where a huge number of languages have been turned into available downloads.

For MA (CB) yes... but not any other variant of Modular that sits at the same cost but works differently. For instance I've toyed with it as MA: Linguist Training (Social Advantages, +50%; Languages and Cultural Familiarity Only, -20%). The idea being the character has to 'mentally switch gears' to remember the other languages or cultures he's learned about.

So, it's pretty easy to reskin Computer Brain into anything else, even Divine Inspiration (Powers pg 63).

Originally Posted by whswhs

So you give him an internal memory bank that holds them, and you refigure the costs of the slots and character points slightly, following the guidelines in GURPS Powers.

And how much will that cost? note... if it pops up to about or above 50 points, you've just made a case for Omnilingual to replace it.

Originally Posted by whswhs

1. Modular Abilities, Computer Brain, 2 slots, 6 points each (to cover full fluency in two languages at a time, over and above the base language). Each slot has a base cost of 6 points and 24 more points for the point value of what it holds; so the total base cost is 60 points. Then you take Trait-Limited, Languages only -50%, to get the cost down to 30 points.

I'm sorry, above when I said 'hold a conversation in more than 6 languages" I should have said "more than 3".

And 3PO hits that 3 several times. Any time he's in a conversion with Chewie and Artoo at the same time.

I bet his poor overworked circuits would just blown if Artoo and Chewie had spoken in Jabba's courtroom...