Weapon Master for Guns

[PK]

Gunslinger is essentially "Weapon Master for Guns" -- in concept, if not in actual detail-for-detail matching -- in that it provides reduced penalties for quick shots, reduced penalties for attacking on the move, access to crazy cinematic abilities, and so on.

It does not provide a damage bonus, true, but if you want a damage bonus, just load your guns with better ammo! Guns have the potential for increased damage, armor divisors, explosive follow-ups, etc., all from loading custom ammo. They really don't need an advantage which adds extra damage on top of that. It's not a coincidence that guns aren't on the Weapon Master list.

[Captain-Captain]

Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty

Gunslinger is essentially "Weapon Master for Guns" -- in concept, if not in actual detail-for-detail matching -- in that it provides reduced penalties for quick shots, reduced penalties for attacking on the move, access to crazy cinematic abilities, and so on.

It does not provide a damage bonus, true, but if you want a damage bonus, just load your guns with better ammo! Guns have the potential for increased damage, armor divisors, explosive follow-ups, etc., all from loading custom ammo. They really don't need an advantage which adds extra damage on top of that. It's not a coincidence that guns aren't on the Weapon Master list.

And if you absolutely have to do better than upgrade your ammo:

Imbuments.

[davidtmoore]

Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty

Gunslinger is essentially "Weapon Master for Guns" -- in concept, if not in actual detail-for-detail matching -- in that it provides reduced penalties for quick shots, reduced penalties for attacking on the move, access to crazy cinematic abilities, and so on.

Very true, but then Heroic Archer was reverse engineered from Gunslinger, and then archers started taking HA with WM, which opened up the idea of doing it the other way around and allowing WM (Guns).

As I say, I wouldn't allow it myself - for the reasons given, but mostly for style reasons - but I don't think GURPS falls over and breaks if a GM wants to house-rule WM (Guns). It depends on the style of game you want; it would lead to a massively cinematic gunbunny game.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Bruno

Bows can Rapid Strike. See Rapid Readying/Rapid Firing, Martial Arts and Dungeon Fantasy. Bows can also Dual Weapon Attack (sort of).

Do you mean Quick Shooting Bows? Yes I mentioned that. Having both advantages does halve the penalty. It doesn't have any affect on Dual Weapon attack (other then allow it in the first place which Heroic Archer already does).

It involves a silly amount of dice rolls, at big penalties. Heroic Archer halves them, as does Weapon Master

As I mentioned. Once Heroic Archer has already halved them it is cheaper to just raise Bow rather than get WM, however.

Originally Posted by Captain-Captain

True. You can now perk your way to learning cinematic skills, which was the other appeal of WM.

Heroic Archer also allows them.

Obviously I wasn't clear:
Doug said:

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Take a look at Heroic Archer, which I think is basically Weapon Master for Bows.

I merely intended to say that Weapon Master (Bow) is Weapon Master for Bows. Heroic Archer is something else entirely (and mainly that something else is Gunslinger for bows). There is a lot of overlap between the two however, and if you have Heroic Archer the only real reason to take Weapon Master (Bow) is the damage bonus as the skill penalty would be cheaper to buy off by raising Bow.

[Kalzazz]

Even if your knocked down shooting back can still happen, its not a huge penalty

[Kuroshima]

Originally Posted by Captain-Captain

And if you absolutely have to do better than upgrade your ammo:

Imbuments.

I can not stress this enough. Imbuements add a lot of offensive capability to the gunfighter, and more importantly, a lot of utility (Stunning with Crippling/Stupefying blow, immobilizing with Binding Shot,...). They even allowed some of the Gun Fu stuns prior to Gun Fu (Bank shot/arcing shot/...). A gunslinger with Imbuements can hold his own to low level supers of the same point value.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty

Guns have the potential for increased damage, armor divisors, explosive follow-ups, etc., all from loading custom ammo.

Isn't the same true for bows as well, though?

[martinl]

IMO, the reason you can't get a skill based damage bonus for guns is mechanical. You can certainly get more "oomph" from a melee weapon with good body mechanics. You can argue (with only a little 'stretching') that proper technique with bows allows for a better draw and more energetic arrows.

It is impossible to use guns skill to make a gun fire a bullet harder.

(You can get better precision and targeting - but this is represented by targeting vulnerable spots in GURPS.)

[Ubiquitous]

Originally Posted by martinl

IMO, the reason you can't get a skill based damage bonus for guns is mechanical. You can certainly get more "oomph" from a melee weapon with good body mechanics. You can argue (with only a little 'stretching') that proper technique with bows allows for a better draw and more energetic arrows.

It is impossible to use guns skill to make a gun fire a bullet harder.

(You can get better precision and targeting - but this is represented by targeting vulnerable spots in GURPS.)

My argument to this to my GM was; if 'technique' is the issue behind better melee-weapon damage, then it can work for guns too; having such a way to use it that you cut valuable wasted time/energy out of it, and therefore get to put your shot in a more centered area. Aim at the hand; instead of hitting, doing enough damage to hurt it but not cripple it, you logicize the extra damage that would cripple it as shooting off a finger or so.

Look at it as an auto-success on a hit location that's worth a teensy bit more damage than a full-on one. I know +1 or +2 a dice gets iffy, but for guns using just a flat +1 or +2 isn't so bad, is it? Or a +1 per dice or a +1 or +2 for handguns, +1 for longarms, etc. etc. like Gunslinger does for weapon Acc the bigger the weapon gets.

Also if you're gonna argue against 'mechanical' for guns I don't see your case against bows; once that arrow's gone, it's gone, you can't influence it with subtle technique past that point.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Ubiquitous

My argument to this to my GM was; if 'technique' is the issue behind better melee-weapon damage, then it can work for guns too; having such a way to use it that you cut valuable wasted time/energy out of it, and therefore get to put your shot in a more centered area. Aim at the hand; instead of hitting, doing enough damage to hurt it but not cripple it, you logicize the extra damage that would cripple it as shooting off a finger or so.

Look at it as an auto-success on a hit location that's worth a teensy bit more damage than a full-on one. I know +1 or +2 a dice gets iffy, but for guns using just a flat +1 or +2 isn't so bad, is it? Or a +1 per dice or a +1 or +2 for handguns, +1 for longarms, etc. etc. like Gunslinger does for weapon Acc the bigger the weapon gets.

Also if you're gonna argue against 'mechanical' for guns I don't see your case against bows; once that arrow's gone, it's gone, you can't influence it with subtle technique past that point.

The amount you pull back an arrow adds energy very quickly at the end, since force is highest. There are issues with this, since pulling a bow past normal draw length *can* break the bow (presumably with WM(Bow) you know enough that this doesn't happen, or maybe will only happen with Cheap bows), and arrows are usually sized for a particular draw length. Still, there's at least a hope at a valid reason for extra damage.

With a gun, this just ain't in it with modern firearms (you can overload a black powder pistol, but, um, BOOM! is a real possibility). You pull the trigger, you get a particular velocity with a given barrel and bullet. Therefore you get the same base damage.

However, as I said upthread, the fact that you get Acc without Aim means you have (esp if you Brace) +2 to +4 with a handgun that can be used to offset (again, with no aim) penalties to the Vitals, Brain, or Areas That Bleed Alot if you use rules to that effect. This is pretty much the only way to leverage a gun into extra damage.