In Nomine and GURPS Cabal

JCD · 05-25-2010, 08:39 AM

I am working on how to merge these two systems together. Lonewolf had a thread which dealt with this and Infinite Worlds, but that is quite a bit broader then is a good fit. The narrow focus in the Cabal of "man being the measure of all things" and the uniqueness of God's Creation works much better, IMO.

Obviously Assiah is Earth and is the place of The War. Yetzariah (doing all these funky names from memory, so if I get one mispelled, forgiveness is divine) would be the Marches. Heck, the map already includes a Vale of Dreams, so that segues perfectly. The section that the angels and demons call 'The Far Marches' would be quite a bit more involved then offered by IN proper, but arrogance seems to fit in both Celestial's mental luggage.

Briah would be the home of Heaven and Hell. Except for those dual realms, I see it as losing quite a bit of significance in the Cabal worldview. The Abyss (God's Wastebin) and Atziliah (The Godhead) would respectively be the Lower Hells and the Higher Heavens.

From a style perspective, the Cabal would be less about survival from the mundanes (a reasonably easy task) to one protection and manipulation from the Celestials. Demonic contracts become much more frightening, not from a personal damnation standpoint (though that is awful) but from the political opening it makes for demons to attack and subvert their membership.

As a result of this, I see the lodges as widely seperated; a cell structure for defense. Sorcery gets to be slightly more effective against demons. Angels are just something to be avoided entirely.

The Twelve and the Grand Masters fit seamlessly, though "The Test" for Grandmastery would be travel to the Far Marches more then a visit to the Godhead (which generally results in a stain on the golden cobbles of the Pearly Gates.)

What are your thoughts?

William · 05-25-2010, 10:16 PM

What are you doing about Michael, Raphael, Gabriel and Uriel? Are they still planet-shaking entities on the four cardinal directions in Briah, visible even from Hell? Or is Raphael dead, Uriel ascended, Gabriel on walkabout, and Michael holding the sky up by himself? Maybe Raphael and Uriel left 'echoes' that can't talk or use Archangelic powers anymore, but are doing some sort of job in the infinite distance? Or perhaps a sort of Remnant is sitting there being a divine step-down?

JCD · 05-26-2010, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William

What are you doing about Michael, Raphael, Gabriel and Uriel? Are they still planet-shaking entities on the four cardinal directions in Briah, visible even from Hell? Or is Raphael dead, Uriel ascended, Gabriel on walkabout, and Michael holding the sky up by himself? Maybe Raphael and Uriel left 'echoes' that can't talk or use Archangelic powers anymore, but are doing some sort of job in the infinite distance? Or perhaps a sort of Remnant is sitting there being a divine step-down?

Considering how far the Godhead is from everything, and how much mercury fumes the average Cabalite has been snorting, they can have as many funny ideas as John of Patmos.

William · 05-27-2010, 07:59 AM

I'm sorry, I don't follow.

Do you mean to say that the In Nomine view is "dominant," so that, e.g., there are no such things as magically useful decans, Briah does not involve Archangels standing at the Four Quarters, there is no Sword Bridge, and the like? To what extent is the view of the universe presented in GURPS Cabal (and its adaptation in Infinite Worlds for 4e) true?

JCD · 05-27-2010, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William

I'm sorry, I don't follow.

Do you mean to say that the In Nomine view is "dominant," so that, e.g., there are no such things as magically useful decans, Briah does not involve Archangels standing at the Four Quarters, there is no Sword Bridge, and the like? To what extent is the view of the universe presented in GURPS Cabal (and its adaptation in Infinite Worlds for 4e) true?

Bear in mind that this is a work in progress and I'm still cyphering out the implications. Your help would be apprecated.

There is ONE Earth.

There are three tiers of magic: 'Recipe' wizards (i.e. they know a Ritual or two ala Unknown Armies) who can do one or two tricks reliably. This is the vast majority of them. Hermetic/Religious Practicioners who know the Laws of Sympathy or have Ultraterrestrial help from Ethereals or others. (Reasonably rare) Lastly Cabalists who use The Decanic system of magic

This is due to the extreme suppression used by Celestials over the Ages, and in part because Hatiphas doesn't want the True Magic in the hands of humans. To mix worldviews, the Symphony has 36 different notes and humans are able to echo them with magic. The Cabal calls them Decans.

That means there is a small but significant group of Sorcerers out there who are able to much more strongly influence reality. This also means that their paranoia is AWESOME. They know exactly what is out there probing at them from both sides. And since magic is nowhere near as strong as Songs are...(I am tempted to rule that Songs are considered The Words of Power by the Cabal, who don't totally understand Celestials, but see their direct and awesome power)

Since I strongly favor the Ritual Magic style of GURPS Spirits, using Decans as modifiers, this makes for an interesting blend. Celestials have awesome Songs which take reality by the scruff and shake it. Meanwhile, the Celestials are stuck with important people to them dying of falling flowerpots by some group of sorcerers miles away who spent all day chanting up the murder. (Essence is still in work)

As noted in previous posts, the Shediim are Quipolithic type beings whose agenda is unknowable and are the least suited to reality. Reality rejects them so strongly that they require hosts to disguise their presence. They can take Celestial Form for small amounts of time, but that's it. (And I keep Shedim as mostly NPCs) This reflects the reality of the Cabalistic Abyss.

I wasn't in love with the Four Archs as stepdown transformers for Reality, but my mod (still in work) is to have all the Archangels (to a greater and lesser degree) be huge icons of reality. An a practical note, any Cabalist who somehow finds his way to the Silver City or the Gates of Hell isn't going to survive, so how would they see the Sword Bridge or how the Abyss and Atziliah relate? This is left up the the GM, of course. Even the Cabal has their myths.

Yetziliah is where the action is for Cabalists. There they can learn more sorcery, find artifacts and dragons etc. Briah is where Decans start to get very very strong...and the Celestial presence is almost assured. Only the strongest of the strong sorcerers try to go there with few returning.

William · 05-29-2010, 03:18 PM

Allright. It sounds like you have an idea what you want the world to look like. Are there still Shedite Princes, like Saminga and Mammon? Or does Lucifer merely "claim" these entities? Do Shedites fledge from demonlings or do they show up in entirely different ways? What does this mean for Kyriotates?

Songs as Words of Power makes sense. If you have Liber Canticorum, you might pick just 36 Songs to exist, one for each Decan. Some are easy (Eneuth, Phthenoth); some might be a little trickier (Belbel, Tepsisem).

Are there any particular points you'd like ideas on?

JCD · 05-29-2010, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William

Allright. It sounds like you have an idea what you want the world to look like. Are there still Shedite Princes, like Saminga and Mammon? Or does Lucifer merely "claim" these entities? Do Shedites fledge from demonlings or do they show up in entirely different ways? What does this mean for Kyriotates?

Songs as Words of Power makes sense. If you have Liber Canticorum, you might pick just 36 Songs to exist, one for each Decan. Some are easy (Eneuth, Phthenoth); some might be a little trickier (Belbel, Tepsisem).

Are there any particular points you'd like ideas on?

I am easy.

Yes, Lucifer fleshed out the forces of Hell with the most intelligent quipolithic fragments since he had a 2/1 disadvantage.

There are still Shedite Princes. But they are...troubling. Saminga is trying to kill all Creation. Malphas is trying to wrench it's social fabric asunder. Mammon? Not sure. He might get reracked.

Shedites do not fledge from demonlings. Or they are their OWN brand of demonling.

William · 05-29-2010, 08:18 PM

Can they Redeem into Kyrios, or are Kyrios a separate race entirely? (Of course, given Kyrios' effects on human sanity, people might wonder if the whole Choir wasn't a kind of qlippoth in disguise itself, even if it wasn't Redeemed!)

I agree with you on maybe switching out Mammon. Although perhaps he's a qlippothic opposite of Murmux -- the Aethyrs might be the top-ranked Ethereals, as powerful as Archangels, and perhaps aspects of the Divine; and maybe the Shedite Princes, when they show up, are qlippothic versions of Aethyrs. Saminga would be a version of Menqal (Kurtael), Malphas of Hokmiah (Mardero). Legion would be a lock for Naber of Akton.

(Hmm... and some of those images suggest that Kyriotates would do well for the Aethyrs themselves; Nithaya of Anatreth, for example, "most often manifests as a blurry image of wings." Perhaps this Choir and Band are a whole celestial and infernal race on their own. That might be a bridge too far, though.

Rocket Man · 05-29-2010, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William

Alre there still Shedite Princes, like Saminga and Mammon?

Quote:

Originally Posted by JCD

There are still Shedite Princes. But they are...troubling. Saminga is trying to kill all Creation. Malphas is trying to wrench it's social fabric asunder. Mammon? Not sure. He might get reracked.

Minor correction. Mammon is a Balseraph.

ladyarcana55 · 05-29-2010, 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rocket Man

Minor correction. Mammon is a Balseraph.

I was wondering...

05-25-2010, 08:39 AM	#1
JCD Join Date: May 2008 Location: Birthplace of the Worst Pizza on the Planet	In Nomine and GURPS Cabal I am working on how to merge these two systems together. Lonewolf had a thread which dealt with this and Infinite Worlds, but that is quite a bit broader then is a good fit. The narrow focus in the Cabal of "man being the measure of all things" and the uniqueness of God's Creation works much better, IMO. Obviously Assiah is Earth and is the place of The War. Yetzariah (doing all these funky names from memory, so if I get one mispelled, forgiveness is divine) would be the Marches. Heck, the map already includes a Vale of Dreams, so that segues perfectly. The section that the angels and demons call 'The Far Marches' would be quite a bit more involved then offered by IN proper, but arrogance seems to fit in both Celestial's mental luggage. Briah would be the home of Heaven and Hell. Except for those dual realms, I see it as losing quite a bit of significance in the Cabal worldview. The Abyss (God's Wastebin) and Atziliah (The Godhead) would respectively be the Lower Hells and the Higher Heavens. From a style perspective, the Cabal would be less about survival from the mundanes (a reasonably easy task) to one protection and manipulation from the Celestials. Demonic contracts become much more frightening, not from a personal damnation standpoint (though that is awful) but from the political opening it makes for demons to attack and subvert their membership. As a result of this, I see the lodges as widely seperated; a cell structure for defense. Sorcery gets to be slightly more effective against demons. Angels are just something to be avoided entirely. The Twelve and the Grand Masters fit seamlessly, though "The Test" for Grandmastery would be travel to the Far Marches more then a visit to the Godhead (which generally results in a stain on the golden cobbles of the Pearly Gates.) What are your thoughts?

05-25-2010, 10:16 PM	#2
William Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Upper Peninsula of Michigan	Re: In Nomine and GURPS Cabal What are you doing about Michael, Raphael, Gabriel and Uriel? Are they still planet-shaking entities on the four cardinal directions in Briah, visible even from Hell? Or is Raphael dead, Uriel ascended, Gabriel on walkabout, and Michael holding the sky up by himself? Maybe Raphael and Uriel left 'echoes' that can't talk or use Archangelic powers anymore, but are doing some sort of job in the infinite distance? Or perhaps a sort of Remnant is sitting there being a divine step-down?

05-27-2010, 07:59 AM	#4
William Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Upper Peninsula of Michigan	Re: In Nomine and GURPS Cabal I'm sorry, I don't follow. Do you mean to say that the In Nomine view is "dominant," so that, e.g., there are no such things as magically useful decans, Briah does not involve Archangels standing at the Four Quarters, there is no Sword Bridge, and the like? To what extent is the view of the universe presented in GURPS Cabal (and its adaptation in Infinite Worlds for 4e) true?

05-29-2010, 03:18 PM	#6
William Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Upper Peninsula of Michigan	Re: In Nomine and GURPS Cabal Allright. It sounds like you have an idea what you want the world to look like. Are there still Shedite Princes, like Saminga and Mammon? Or does Lucifer merely "claim" these entities? Do Shedites fledge from demonlings or do they show up in entirely different ways? What does this mean for Kyriotates? Songs as Words of Power makes sense. If you have Liber Canticorum, you might pick just 36 Songs to exist, one for each Decan. Some are easy (Eneuth, Phthenoth); some might be a little trickier (Belbel, Tepsisem). Are there any particular points you'd like ideas on?

05-29-2010, 08:18 PM	#8
William Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Upper Peninsula of Michigan	Re: In Nomine and GURPS Cabal Can they Redeem into Kyrios, or are Kyrios a separate race entirely? (Of course, given Kyrios' effects on human sanity, people might wonder if the whole Choir wasn't a kind of qlippoth in disguise itself, even if it wasn't Redeemed!) I agree with you on maybe switching out Mammon. Although perhaps he's a qlippothic opposite of Murmux -- the Aethyrs might be the top-ranked Ethereals, as powerful as Archangels, and perhaps aspects of the Divine; and maybe the Shedite Princes, when they show up, are qlippothic versions of Aethyrs. Saminga would be a version of Menqal (Kurtael), Malphas of Hokmiah (Mardero). Legion would be a lock for Naber of Akton. (Hmm... and some of those images suggest that Kyriotates would do well for the Aethyrs themselves; Nithaya of Anatreth, for example, "most often manifests as a blurry image of wings." Perhaps this Choir and Band are a whole celestial and infernal race on their own. That might be a bridge too far, though.