Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-29-2012, 11:00 PM   #1
Jürgen Hubert
 
Jürgen Hubert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Oldenburg, Germany
Default Do the Archery rules cover this?

Take a look at this video.

While "Multiple Fast-Draw" from p. 103 in GURPS Martial Arts covers the act of drawing multiple arrows, I couldn't find anything about holding the excess arrows in the hand you are shooting with.
__________________
GURPS Repository Sunken Castles, Evil Poodles - translating German folk tales into English!
Jürgen Hubert is offline  
Old 11-29-2012, 11:24 PM   #2
Dustin
 
Dustin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: The former Chochenyo territory
Default Re: Do the Archery rules cover this?

I don't think existing rules cover this - GURPS rules all seem to assume that the archer is performing a full draw, maximum power shot. The highly skilled fellow in this video is (in my opinion) mostly trading power for speed, using partial draws and an intriguing, but awkward arrow-readying technique that I think would compromise his hand's ability to pull a 100-lb+ warbow.

Together, I might stat it as a Technique that reduces the penalty for Rapid Strike but penalizes effective ST while doing so.
__________________
My gaming blog: Thor's Grumblings
Keep your friends close, and your enemies in Close Combat.
Dustin is offline  
Old 11-29-2012, 11:38 PM   #3
Polydamas
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Central Europe
Default Re: Do the Archery rules cover this?

I would just give a Fast-Draw bonus for arrows held in the hand. A half draw would give a big bonus to Fast-Draw (Arrow) but half ST.

Not all bows used in war had high (>100 lb) draw weights. The proof of the pudding will be if someone can reproduce those with moderate (50-100 lb) draw weight bows and get useful penetration. The last slide says that the bows have a 30-35 lb draw, and I hope that is at the short distance he draws to rather than full extension.

I think he needs to get a refund from whoever imported that Indian maille :)
__________________
"It is easier to banish a habit of thought than a piece of knowledge." H. Beam Piper

This forum got less aggravating when I started using the ignore feature
Polydamas is offline  
Old 11-29-2012, 11:49 PM   #4
Polydamas
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Central Europe
Default Re: Do the Archery rules cover this?

I also think that you can maintain a rate of fire of two arrows a second in GURPS with Dual-Weapon Attack (Bow) and Quick-Shooting Bows from MA p. 119, 120. Its a loose interpretation of DWA (Bow) but the effect is what matters. The trick is to stat the bonuses from carrying arrows in hand, using a short draw, and so on that let someone with a plausible skill do this outside of combat.
__________________
"It is easier to banish a habit of thought than a piece of knowledge." H. Beam Piper

This forum got less aggravating when I started using the ignore feature
Polydamas is offline  
Old 11-30-2012, 12:46 AM   #5
vierasmarius
 
vierasmarius's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Oregon
Default Re: Do the Archery rules cover this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polydamas View Post
I would just give a Fast-Draw bonus for arrows held in the hand. A half draw would give a big bonus to Fast-Draw (Arrow) but half ST.
I'd let a half-draw offset some of the -6 penalty for Quick-Shooting Bows. As a technique, -2 damage (or -1 per die) would give a +4. As a Hard technique, you could raise it to full skill for [3], or [4] if you require an Unusual Training perk. As mentioned under Quick-Shooting, in a realistic setting this could be at an additional -4 if attempted in combat.

Fast Draw is a separate issue, IMO. The fact that he's holding the arrows in-hand (presumably getting a bonus to Fast Draw but a penalty to Bow) hints at where his expertise may lie.
vierasmarius is offline  
Old 11-30-2012, 03:32 AM   #6
B9anders
 
B9anders's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Denmark
Default Re: Do the Archery rules cover this?

I'd simply treat it as a bonus to fast-draw, using similar rules as in Martial Arts about fast-drawing weapons from different places and positions.

or alternatively, good use of the quick-swap perk.
B9anders is offline  
Old 11-30-2012, 08:27 AM   #7
Polydamas
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Central Europe
Default Re: Do the Archery rules cover this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by vierasmarius View Post
I'd let a half-draw offset some of the -6 penalty for Quick-Shooting Bows. As a technique, -2 damage (or -1 per die) would give a +4. As a Hard technique, you could raise it to full skill for [3], or [4] if you require an Unusual Training perk. As mentioned under Quick-Shooting, in a realistic setting this could be at an additional -4 if attempted in combat.

Fast Draw is a separate issue, IMO. The fact that he's holding the arrows in-hand (presumably getting a bonus to Fast Draw but a penalty to Bow) hints at where his expertise may lie.
The interesting thing here is that GURPS makes it more a feat of Bow than Fast-Draw (Arrow). Drawing two arrows with one hand in a second is two rolls at +0 and -2, and having the arrows in hand must give at least +2, in addition to a large out-of-combat bonus. Quick-Shooting Bows with a Dual-Weapon Attack requires three Bow rolls at -6, -10, and -10 with a significant size and range/speed penalty (even 10 yards is -4), a multitasking penalty for holding the bow and spare arrows at the same time, and a large out-of-combat bonus.

I agree that this could be turned into some techniques. It might make a good Pyramid article ...
__________________
"It is easier to banish a habit of thought than a piece of knowledge." H. Beam Piper

This forum got less aggravating when I started using the ignore feature
Polydamas is offline  
Old 12-01-2012, 02:31 AM   #8
Jürgen Hubert
 
Jürgen Hubert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Oldenburg, Germany
Default Re: Do the Archery rules cover this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polydamas View Post
I agree that this could be turned into some techniques. It might make a good Pyramid article ...
Indeed. I stumbled across this video on RPGNet, where the original poster claimed that no RPG system covered this technique. To my chagrin, I discovered he was right about GURPS.

I am also interested in the alleged historical uses of this technique.
__________________
GURPS Repository Sunken Castles, Evil Poodles - translating German folk tales into English!
Jürgen Hubert is offline  
Old 12-01-2012, 04:01 AM   #9
Mr Frost
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Here .
Default Re: Do the Archery rules cover this?

I'm inclined to call fraud on many of the claims in the video .



To begin with , the quality of both the mail and warhead is not only unmentioned but unverifiable too .
The mail could have been made of plastic for all we know and palming something as small as that busted link He showed {which burst on the wire its' self , not the rivet which is highly suspect to my mind} is pretty easy to learn .
Also , the maile is without padding and laid flat on a rigid surface {which for penetration is cheating shamefully !} .

Not to mention , the video shows a pyramidal shaped bodkin and claims it was for armour piercing when from what I have read , all the examples found of such heads were too soft for such and would have been for flight arrows instead .


Second , there is no way He is pulling any useful draw weight with many of the arm positions He uses .
The Human body is a machine and there are limits to what it can do in what fashion . He is using a very weak grip on the string/arrow and is pushing the bow forward using what would be a very weak jab in boxing .
Regardless of how much strength work He might have done , that bow would have to be pretty anemic .
It would have been worthless in battle unless the enemy were unarmed rabbits .


Third , I would like to know where it is recorded when Saracen archers were tested and had to be able to shoot 3 arrows in 1.5 seconds .
I would also like to know when Medieval Arabs started measuring passages of time in fractions of a second .

If the time span was a heartbeat , the ability to stop ones own heart beat is fairly common and is taught to high level competition shooters and so easy to learn I taught Myself to do it as a teenager {it sounded like a cool thing to try at the time} .

It is quite plausible that a shooter might be encouraged to master the ability to shoot between heartbeats {the pulse of blood through the body can disturb aim} and being able to hold off the next beat for three shots might have been something of a self measured standard {or more likely some sort of poetic expression which is common in Medieval Arabic} , though I have never heard of it before .
It is possible to hold of the hearts' next beat for more than 1.5 seconds with practice .


Finally , the whole video just plain sets off My B.S. detector .




Edit : I mean no slight on you Jurgen , the harshness is directed at the people in the video .

This video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yorHswhzrU seems more realistic to Me , but also illustrates your question {how can this be modeled in G.U.R.P.S} .
__________________
7 out of 10 people like me ,
I'm not going to change for the other 3 !

Last edited by Mr Frost; 12-01-2012 at 04:20 AM. Reason: was reason .
Mr Frost is offline  
Old 12-01-2012, 04:26 AM   #10
Peter V. Dell'Orto
Fightin' Round the World
 
Peter V. Dell'Orto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: New Jersey
Default Re: Do the Archery rules cover this?

I watched a little of the video - it's kind of long and blurry so I just hunted down the part where I can see him holding the extra arrows.

The "holding the extra arrows in the hand" bit isn't speeding him up vs. successful Fast Draw rolls that I could see. I can't imagine those arrows make for an easier draw or maximize your ability to use a bow in combat. I'd apply a -2 for each extra arrow in your hand to your bow skill, halved for Weapon Master (Bow) or Heroic Archer or both to -1. That way you can get rid of the Fast Draw rolls if you want but suffer a bit in the shooting.
__________________
Peter V. Dell'Orto
aka Toadkiller_Dog or TKD
My Author Page
My S&C Blog
My Dungeon Fantasy Game Blog
"You fall onto five death checks." - Andy Dokachev
Peter V. Dell'Orto is offline  
Closed Thread

Tags
archer, bow, bow art, martial arts, tactical shooting, weapon master

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:53 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.