TFT + Fate Starting Point

[zot]

TLDR; Use your "middle valued" (second highest) attribute, which I call M, for social and psychological rolls. See document for rules for contests, tasks, and a better opposed roll system based on Dark City Games' rules.

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TFT's talents are like Fate's skills, stunts, and extras, so I don't see a need for Fate dice or the ladder, provided that TFT can be tweaked to handle social and psychological checks.

TFT is VERY BAD with social and psychological checks because it lumps all of that into IQ rolls and "reaction rolls" (which seem to be a left over from miniatures gaming). It's so bad that when we played in the early 80s, we never used any skill rolls. We "used role playing" for that, which actually doesn't really work. If you're a tactless oaf, good luck playing a debonaire swashbuckler when all you can do is "role play". For social skills, you really need skill checks that can "form a script" for your role playing. I put rules for using social / psychological skills into a document (see below).

TFT doesn't have a contest system (it calls opposed rolls "contests") so I put rules for that into the same document, along with rules for long-running tasks.

Also, TFT's opposed roll rules are cumbersome (subtract and compare using a number of dice determined by talent comparisons), so I offer a simpler alternative based on Dark City Games' more elegant (in my opinion) opposed roll system in the same document.

With these tweaks, I believe TFT can do pretty much everything Fate does, except for aspects. Whether or not to use those and to what extent is still up in the air to me -- I've integrated aspects into other systems before (like Tri-Stat dX and PDQ) and it does work.

The way I propose to handle social / psychological rolls, by the way, is to use your "middle valued" (second highest) attribute, which I call M. This is a very rough way to get an attribute that only increases slowly with experience, making talents more important than stats for M-rolls. Also, characters with a higher M will have to be less specialized, attribute-wise, which reflects their more "well rounded" focus.

Here's the document with the details (add just added some edits to clarify a few things).

Some of my original posts on these are:

• Contests, Opposed Rolls, and Tasks -- Feedback, Please?
• The original contests post
• Resisting Fear (dump stats and 3/L, 3/M, 3/H saving throws)
• Contests to change reaction roll results

[JLV]

One of the things I like about FUDGE/FATE is the dice used. Rather than some kind of numerical result (which tends to lead to all sorts of technical discussions and/or comparisons that lack any absolute value in the world), it simply provides a good/bad result that is weighted by the number of pluses and minuses you received. It's really very intuitive and is actually kind of simulationist in the sense that we very seldom know we got a 7 out of a possible 18 result in some kind of social interaction in real life, but we have a "feel" for whether or not we succeeded, and generally some sense that "that went well," or; "it's time for us to start running," in terms of the magnitude of our success or failure.

Numerical results, I think, are much better for combat (and magic) in that they can allow the GM to more accurately gauge the level of success or failure and they translate well into physical types of actions and results. Really it's the SOCIAL interactions where the system seems awkward and less than rational. FUDGE/FATE, on the other hand, as I've said before, seems somehow to more intuitively simulate the NATURE of social interactions better than rolling against IQ or on some kind of reaction continuum. In effect, the results from using the FUDGE/FATE system are on an internal continuum, modified by the event itself, rather than on some absolute continuum as indicated by a specific numerical result compared to an arbitrary standard (e.g., the existing reaction system).

At the same time, I don't like the way the FUDGE/FATE system resolves combat, since it effectively denies the players the opportunity to really control their tactical outcome through their own actions and decisions; in effect, it's much like the original D&D system -- it's mostly theater of the mind. TFT does a wonderful job of giving the players more control over the details of their combat outcome without driving them insane with exhaustive detail, and always has, IMO.

Anyway, that's my opinion on why I like the idea of using FUDGE/FATE to control the social side of the game. Obviously, people are going to feel differently/disagree on approach, and everything else. I'm not really writing about that though, nor am I disagreeing with how anyone else feels about or approaches the issue, so much as I am trying to explain why I feel it works better... ;-)

[zot]

Originally Posted by JLV

At the same time, I don't like the way the FUDGE/FATE system resolves combat, since it effectively denies the players the opportunity to really control their tactical outcome through their own actions and decisions; in effect, it's much like the original D&D system -- it's mostly theater of the mind. TFT does a wonderful job of giving the players more control over the details of their combat outcome without driving them insane with exhaustive detail, and always has, IMO.

Anyway, that's my opinion on why I like the idea of using FUDGE/FATE to control the social side of the game. Obviously, people are going to feel differently/disagree on approach, and everything else. I'm not really writing about that though, nor am I disagreeing with how anyone else feels about or approaches the issue, so much as I am trying to explain why I feel it works better... ;-)

Weeeellll, why didn't you just tell me you wanted tactics for Fate? :D I made this for a Fate game that focused on cinematic martial arts (group tactics, chain weapons, ...). It's a way to do gritty tactics but still keep to Fate's zone map system. You pretty much need a table with a map and minis though, even though it actually uses zones.

[MikMod]

Originally Posted by Shoug

Player characters begin with Knowledge Points equal to their IQ and gain one whenever they raise their IQ. These may be spent on Spells and Talents in the usual “TFT” way, but they may also be spent on increasing any Fate Skill modifier by +1 up to your IQ-8. The Fate Skills are rolled for in the usual “Fate” way, and start at -1 (this means it takes 1 point to get to +0!). You should probably revise the Skills list that you will be using for your game (in order to remove such skills as Fight, Shoot, and Physique). The Skills list that I’ll be using in my games is as follows:

• Burglary
• Crafts
• Deceive
• Empathy
• Provoke
• Will
• Rapport
• Drive
• Investigate
• Lore
• Notice
• Stealth

Talents are to be invoked as Fate Aspects, in lieu of your Main Concept (you may still have a Trouble and may still do the Phase Trio if you desire). A Talent's normal text is only to be used if it pertains to combat or resources. Otherwise, ignore them, and use Fate instead. These specifications detail the only point of contact between Fate and TFT. Outside of these rulings, Fate and TFT don't step on each other's toes. They are to be played as normal, albeit simultaneously.

Q: What happens to my Fate skills if my IQ is 8? :/

It almost seems like IQ and Fate cannot be joined. Could you keep Fate as Fate and just call TFT 'IQ' your 'Fighting Prowess' or something, which just tracks your ability to learn high level fighting skills like Sword Master and Two Weapons? Or 'Spell Prowess' which unlocks higher level spells as you become more competent? More like Melee + Wizard + Fate, than ITL + Fate?

Q: How do you give experience? Do you get TFT xp AND Fate advancements separately?

[MikMod]

Re my own embryonic ideas, I think I may not have taken into account the 'tipping point' nature of Fate skills.

If two combatants have the same Fight skill it's balanced, but if one has just slightly more skill, even just one point, then the fight suddenly becomes very one sided. Is that your experience of Fate fights?

In my quick sim, it goes from both sides having approximately 58% chance to hit, and 14% chance of doing it with style, to a situation where the more skilled (by one point) has a 74% chance to hit and 25% chance of doing it with style, and the weaker one has only a 42% chance to hit, and a 6% chance of doing it with style.

[zot]

Originally Posted by MikMod

Re my own embryonic ideas, I think I may not have taken into account the 'tipping point' nature of Fate skills.

If two combatants have the same Fight skill it's balanced, but if one has just slightly more skill, even just one point, then the fight suddenly becomes very one sided. Is that your experience of Fate fights?

In my quick sim, it goes from both sides having approximately 58% chance to hit, and 14% chance of doing it with style, to a situation where the more skilled (by one point) has a 74% chance to hit and 25% chance of doing it with style, and the weaker one has only a 42% chance to hit, and a 6% chance of doing it with style.

Style meaning "doing at least 3 damage"? Style usually doesn't figure into damage. It gives you the option to trade 1 stress for a boost but I don't think I've ever seen a player use that option. I guess it really is a net win though because it works out to more options...

[Shoug]

Originally Posted by MikMod

Q: What happens to my Fate skills if my IQ is 8? :/

It almost seems like IQ and Fate cannot be joined. Could you keep Fate as Fate and just call TFT 'IQ' your 'Fighting Prowess' or something, which just tracks your ability to learn high level fighting skills like Sword Master and Two Weapons? Or 'Spell Prowess' which unlocks higher level spells as you become more competent? More like Melee + Wizard + Fate, than ITL + Fate?

Q: How do you give experience? Do you get TFT xp AND Fate advancements separately?

If you have 8 IQ, then you may only purchase up to +0 in any of the Fate skills. If you buy literally zero additional points in IQ, then you aren't allowed to be better than Average at any skill. The point of this mechanic is to do the same thing that Talents in TFT already do: Require more IQ for more expertise. In this is system, a character with 12 IQ may be "Great" at any skills, and a character with 14 IQ (the limit of the requisites used in RAW-ITL) may become "Fantastic" at any of the non-combat skills. I feel like this is an appropriate result. I also think that it's fair to mention that Wizards should be put at a disadvantage in this system to maintain the design principles of TFT. You could just say that Skills still cost double for them, but that seems steep. Perhaps their "Skill Cap" is set not by IQ-8 but (IQ-8)/2 rounded down. Perhaps they have a stricter skill cap in addition to starting at an addition -1 in all the skills, to make the buy in more hefty. It's hard to say.

Also, XP should be awarded in exactly the same way that you always do. The only difference is that there is now this new way that Talent Points may be spent.

Originally Posted by MikMod

Re my own embryonic ideas, I think I may not have taken into account the 'tipping point' nature of Fate skills.

If two combatants have the same Fight skill it's balanced, but if one has just slightly more skill, even just one point, then the fight suddenly becomes very one sided. Is that your experience of Fate fights?

In my quick sim, it goes from both sides having approximately 58% chance to hit, and 14% chance of doing it with style, to a situation where the more skilled (by one point) has a 74% chance to hit and 25% chance of doing it with style, and the weaker one has only a 42% chance to hit, and a 6% chance of doing it with style.

This is a good observation, and supports my idea to merge TFT and Fate as a good one. Specifically because I think we can all agree that combat and other precise action should be handled more precisely than that. That low grit resolution is still better than TFT in the way of precision for resolving non-combat actions, though. It's a big improvement on the Reaction Roll.