Improved Melee Defaults for Skilled Combatants

[Anders]

Originally Posted by Donny Brook

On the other hand, with the foregoing in mind, I do think that resistance to Feints or similar combat awareness tests should be based on your highest weapon skill.

Isn't that already the case?

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by JulianLW

I I think a default of 7 in Spear is fine. For a guy like me with no weapon training at all. But for the guy who is competing for world champion with the zweihander?

The guy with Two-handed Sword-15 isn't going to get very far in any World Championship. Guys with 15s get ejected in the first round by guys with 16s. The actual World's Champion probably has enough Skill to attack with significant Deceptive Attacks.

He might also have significant Dodge ability. That's useable while holding any weapon or none and is part of what a competent veteran looks like (especialy a 2-handed weapon user).

I think you're overestimating what Skill-15 should get you. If I was building a primary Melee combatant I would not put his main weapon at less than 16 and I wouldn't choose a two-handed weapon unless he was very strong. A significant part of defense for such weapon users is dropping their opponents at Reach 2 before they can close and attack.

[JulianLW]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

The guy with Two-handed Sword-15 isn't going to get very far in any World Championship. Guys with 15s get ejected in the first round by guys with 16s. The actual World's Champion probably has enough Skill to attack with significant Deceptive Attacks.

I did say "competing," not necessarily a contender! But you actually help make my point. The actual contenders in these championships are likely to have skills above 16. In real life - not Dungeon Fantasy. And the idea that those guys are also going to have default spear skill at 7 or 8 or whatever is ridiculous to me.

My point is: I don't think I'm going to be competitive with this guy at all, even though we're both operating at default. And I think I could actually train with the spear for a long time and still get beat by the "contender" you're describing. And not just because of his superior dodge. But because he's got a lot of points in a melee skill - even if it's not the one we happen to be holding in our hands - and I don't.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by JulianLW

I did say "competing," not necessarily a contender! But you actually help make my point. The actual contenders in these championships are likely to have skills above 16. In real life - not Dungeon Fantasy. And the idea that those guys are also going to have default spear skill at 7 or 8 or whatever is ridiculous to me.

You may have missed a point of mine. You don't just build a great fighter by dumping lots of pts into one Skill. Then it doesn't matter if that single Skill doesn't get him everything he might need.

Using weapons at Default skill (what ever that Default was) has never been a big deal in any of my games anyway.

[Balor Patch]

After the last time skill caps came up, I thought of a solution I think I like:

No weapon skill > DX+3 may have more than [12] above the next most trained skill. So a warrior with Broadsword DX+10 [40] would need another skill at DX+7 [28], another at DX+4 [16], and another at DX+1 [4].

I think this would also be sufficient to prevent universal defaults from acting as a [4] Talent for all weapons.

[JulianLW]

Originally Posted by Balor Patch

After the last time skill caps came up, I thought of a solution I think I like:

No weapon skill > DX+3 may have more than [12] above the next most trained skill. So a warrior with Broadsword DX+10 [40] would need another skill at DX+7 [28], another at DX+4 [16], and another at DX+1 [4].

I think this would also be sufficient to prevent universal defaults from acting as a [4] Talent for all weapons.

Well, if you're using this at the same time as universal defaults from the highest skill ... then you have the weird situation of having a melee skill at default that's 2 points higher than a different melee skill you spent 16 points on....

If you're not changing the defaults, then this is a way of solving the problem that is at odds with a lot of published templates. And which - by adding pretty severe skill caps - significantly narrows down the possibilities for tone in campaigns.... Bullseye and Daredevil probably wouldn't fit into any campaign with these skill caps, though Achilles might.

[Celjabba]

I also somewhat disagree with the premise.

I do agree that some weapon cross-default are excessive, but in this specific exemple, no.

DX 12, Two-Handed Sword at 15, Spear at default of 7 - is not realistic imho.

It is a very trained fighter who have about never handled a spear.
Of course he is going to be clumsy with it the first times he swing one in battle.

It is fine for DF, which ignore realism and instead goes for the most optimal use of cp and hyper-specialization.

Outside of DF, however, a fighter build should imho have either 1 cp or at least a dabbler perk in every commonly used weapon.
Of course, that mean "wasting" something between 6 and 12 cp for a "basic training" package.
It is not cost-efficient. But it is more "realistic" than a fighter focused on a single skill.

[Anders]

So here's what I would do. I would create an "entrance" advantage called Basic Footwork and costs 10 points. This gives you DX in all melee skills. That's discounted because there's a huge overlap.

Then on top of "Basic Footwork" you can buy the skills as usual - remember to buy them up from DX. You can buy them up to DX+5. On top of that you can buy individual weapons as Average techniques starting at DX+5 and going up to DX+10. And DX+10 should really be enough for anyone but of course you can change these numbers around.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Anders

So here's what I would do. I would create an "entrance" advantage called Basic Footwork and costs 10 points. This gives you DX in all melee skills. That's discounted because there's a huge overlap.

As everything but Knife is Average that's equal to 5 Average Skills at DX. The overlap is in the utility of such a Trait. Usually no more than 2 or 3 Melee skills (including Unarmed) at any level is productive.

I'd rate your Trait as overpriced.

[Anders]

Would five points be better? I [am a pentaphiliac.