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Old 09-16-2004, 05:55 PM   #31
Luther
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Default Re: Acc bonus in 4e

Quote:
Originally Posted by Perfect Organism
Are different bows actually any different in terms of accuracy? I don't see how the length of a bow staff makes any difference in terms of putting arrows in a target.
Realistically, yes. Longbows are more accurate than short ones.
I have used short, recurve, compound and longbows, and I can tell you that
lenght *is* a factor. However on the much smaller 4e scale I feel they are all
roughly equivalent, i.e. the difference is small enought to use the same acc bonus.

Kromm, why the new acc bonus?
And if the scale is now smaller, why such differences between bows
while xbows and rifles (spears and short bow) have the same accuracy?
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Last edited by Luther; 09-16-2004 at 05:55 PM. Reason: last question
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Old 09-16-2004, 07:20 PM   #32
Kromm
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Default Re: Acc bonus in 4e

The old Acc values were whacked. They let almost-unskilled shooters with just enough skill to add full Acc do silly things by aiming and bracing, like make fairly reliable headshots at 200 feet. It was a sacrifice to cut the available Acc range in half, but in the end, we felt it resulted in a more balanced game.

We felt it best to say that:

-- Low-tech weapons keep their 3e Accs (0-4) to make fantasy games playable and fun.

-- Low-powered firearms -- handguns*, shotguns†, etc. -- get an Acc in the low to middle part of the low-tech range (1-3), since they're intended for far shorter ranges than bows on medieval battlefields, even though the bullets often go quite far.

-- Rifles get an Acc at the high end (4) and above (5-7) . . . but most really long-ranged, precise rifles need a scope if you want to take advantage of that range and precision, which is why sniper rifles are 6+3 and not 9. That said, the limit on aiming aids means that an Acc 5-6 rifle can get an extra +5 or +6 from sights and scopes, so the effect is double what it looks like.

* I realize this is controversial, but we spoke to lots of handgun shooters, and most agreed that the tiny distance between sights made aimed Acc no better than sighting along a yard-long arrow or crossbow -- and probably quite a bit worse. Pistols can sleaze around this, though, because they count as braced if you just use two hands, giving +1.

† Shotguns, however, always have a fantastic bonus to hit with some shot -- somewhere between +2 and +5 -- thanks to effective RoF!
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Last edited by Kromm; 09-16-2004 at 07:22 PM.
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Old 09-16-2004, 07:57 PM   #33
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Default Re: Acc bonus in 4e

Quote:
Originally Posted by lawman
That all sounds pretty reasonable to me. I know crossbows aren't technically as accurate as rifles, though. They don't have a rifled barrel, for one part.
What in the real world we call "accuracy" of weapon is modelled by at least two stats in GURPS, Acc and 1/2D range. The same Acc and a lower 1/2D range translates to a lot less "accuracy".

Edit: On review, that's not true anymore in 4E. Hmm. I'm not sure I like having crossbows as accurate as some rifles the whole way out to max range, though making Acc completely irrelevent beyond 1/2D, is probably too extreme. Maybe just treat 1/2D as also 1/2 Acc if you want to keep some distinction between the accuracy of some of the more accurate low-tech weapons and firearms with longer ranges.

Last edited by cmdicely; 09-16-2004 at 08:07 PM.
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Old 09-16-2004, 08:08 PM   #34
Luther
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Default Re: Acc bonus in 4e

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm
-- Low-tech weapons keep their 3e Accs (0-4) to make fantasy games playable and fun.
[...]
* I realize this is controversial, but we spoke to lots of handgun shooters, and most agreed that the tiny distance between sights made aimed Acc no better than sighting along a yard-long arrow or crossbow -- and probably quite a bit worse. Pistols can sleaze around this, though, because they count as braced if you just use two hands, giving +1.
I can't agree on the low tech stuff, but I understand your points.
Thanks for the exhaustive explanation.
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Last edited by Luther; 09-16-2004 at 08:10 PM.
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Old 09-16-2004, 08:52 PM   #35
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Default Re: Acc bonus in 4e

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luther
I can't agree on the low tech stuff, but I understand your points.
All I know is that I can hit things at 60 feet with a crossbow that I can't hit at 15 feet with a Glock, starting with no skill at either.
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Old 09-16-2004, 09:02 PM   #36
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Default Re: Acc bonus in 4e

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm
All I know is that I can hit things at 60 feet with a crossbow that I can't hit at 15 feet with a Glock, starting with no skill at either.
On the flip side, I can, at about five yards, put all my bullets into a hole the size of a half dollar, but can't reliably hit something basketball sized with a bow. Well, at least the bows at the MN ren faire. Of course, those bows stink, and I've been shooting pistols for nine years... :-)

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Old 09-16-2004, 09:56 PM   #37
Luther
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Default Re: Acc bonus in 4e

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luther
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm
-- Low-tech weapons keep their 3e Accs (0-4) to make fantasy games playable and fun.
[...]
* I realize this is controversial, but we spoke to lots of handgun shooters, and most agreed that the tiny distance between sights made aimed Acc no better than sighting along a yard-long arrow or crossbow -- and probably quite a bit worse. Pistols can sleaze around this, though, because they count as braced if you just use two hands, giving +1.
I can't agree on the low tech stuff, but I understand your points.
Thanks for the exhaustive explanation.
All I know is that I can hit things at 60 feet with a crossbow that I can't hit at 15 feet with a Glock, starting with no skill at either.
Sorry, I haven't made myself clear ;)
The statement "I can't agree on the low tech stuff" was directed to
the xbows vs rifle, short/reg/longbow and thown vs shortbows issues.

Given that the new accuracy have a smaller scale, I would have ignored the
"playable and fun" argument and probably scaled like (off the top of my head):

thrown 0-1 acc
bows/handguns +2 acc
xbows/compounds with sights +3 acc
rifles +4 acc

because with longbows you don't aim along the arrow (you draw at chin
or mouth usually) and the scale is too small to represent the higher accuracy
of longer bows.

Keep in mind that I'm an "historical" player so I'm a nasty beast to please ;)
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Old 09-17-2004, 01:32 AM   #38
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Default Re: Acc bonus in 4e

Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdicely
On review, that's not true anymore in 4E. Hmm. I'm not sure I like having crossbows as accurate as some rifles the whole way out to max range, though making Acc completely irrelevent beyond 1/2D, is probably too extreme. Maybe just treat 1/2D as also 1/2 Acc if you want to keep some distinction between the accuracy of some of the more accurate low-tech weapons and firearms with longer ranges.
I don't mind - as I said, a crossbow and an AK-47 have about the same RL accuracy, and even an ST20 crossbow can't reach past an AK's 1/2D range.
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Old 09-17-2004, 01:35 AM   #39
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Default Re: Acc bonus in 4e

Quote:
Originally Posted by DouglasCole
On the flip side, I can, at about five yards, put all my bullets into a hole the size of a half dollar, but can't reliably hit something basketball sized with a bow. Well, at least the bows at the MN ren faire. Of course, those bows stink, and I've been shooting pistols for nine years... :-)
Kromm did say 'crossbow', not 'bow'. :)

I can't a man-sized hay-bale at 10 yards with a bow, but have no trouble hitting human silhouette targets at 20 yards with a pistol, and I'm not exactly skilled with either. The lack of nice, sensible sights on the bow might've had something to do with it, of course.
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