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Old 07-06-2015, 12:14 PM   #11
Eukie
 
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Default Re: GURPS 3e & 4e Metal Gear Solid

The armour seems extreme, especially since you needed to make it TL15. In Metal Gear Solid, it's impevious to Stingers, but Stingers aren't designed for anti-armour purposes anyway. While your thing is 3e, and the only Stinger stats I have are 4e, the Stinger does 6dx3 damage, for an average of 63 and a maximum of 108.

Does the 3e Stinger missile really do so much damage that DR 300 is necessary to render it useless against the main armour?
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Old 07-06-2015, 12:27 PM   #12
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Default Re: GURPS 3e & 4e Metal Gear Solid

@Eukie I suppose not. By the time the armor design section came up I was already more than 20,000 lbs. over the target weight of the design (115,000 lbs., about the same as his official statistics) so even DR 1 would weigh in at ~1,500 lbs. The TL15 superscience armor was necessary for the sake of integrity.

Also, the Metal Gear Wiki says REX's Armor is "near-impenetrable compound armor (of which only HEAT weapons could deal sufficient damage)", which suggests a high DR (it was made to resist missiles much larger than the Stinger's.)

Last edited by RedDragon; 07-06-2015 at 12:39 PM.
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Old 07-06-2015, 12:28 PM   #13
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Default Re: GURPS 3e & 4e Metal Gear Solid

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedDragon View Post
I created a 100 MW laser, then realized it was ludicrously overpowered (I think it had a Max range of 1,000,000 or something), so I just used the Med. Laser Cannon.
Laser damage has changed in 4th edition, in 3rd it was based on the square root of the beams energy while in 4th it's the cube root, that is 2d worth of laser damage takes 8 times as much energy (2 × 2 × 2) as 1d worth rather then just 4 times as much (2 × 2) as it would of been in 3rd.

Quote:
The MG Wiki says it fires AGM-129 ACM missiles. According to Wikipedia, the thing is 2 and a half feet wide. I can't really see how else to stat it up, so suggestions and ideas are welcome. I created this thread just so that people can have workable, detailed stuff for Metal Gear campaigns, so I don't need the fixes for a campaign of my own (I'm not planning on running one, at least for a while), but factual stats are appreciated for posterity.
In so far as I know the "fact" of Rex firing a AGM -129 ACM (the ACM stands for Advanced Cruise Missile) came from an old strategy guide for MGS1 published by the long defunct Gamers Republic (I do missed that magazine heh) and isn't something that was ever said in game canon (at lest in so far I know). Pyramid 3/37 Tech and Toys II has stats for a 160mm TL9 railgun and based on my (not really) expert guesstimation skills is pretty close to how large the rail gun really should be (well it's probably a little over 200mm but that's close enough for government work heh). That and I don't know the full formula for how 4th ed stats guns (though I do have a really rough idea) so any stats I give you would at best be approximations.

Quote:
As for the nuke damage, is the 4e revised explosive damage the same as the 3e explosive damage? This stat block is for 3rd edition, so if the damage stated in GURPS Vehicles pp.108-109 is accurate for 3e, I don't think I'll change it.
Explosive damage is even worse in 3rd since it's linear! This is why 3rd has that funky rule were you had to square rigid armors DR against explosive damage. In 4th it was changed to being based on the square root of the explosives weight or as it says in the Basic Set 6d × square root of(Explosives weight in pounds × 4 × the explosives REF (basically how powerful it is relative to TNT)). Now the only problem is that in 4th edition HP is scaled with the cube root of an objects mass, that is the cube root of (objects mass in pounds) × 2 if living, × 4 if a complex machine or × 8 if a solid lump of matter which means that explosives scale in power a lot faster then objects do letting a relatively small amount of explosives to blow up something it shouldn't be able to in reality. Now for the most part for small explosives (such as in any type of explosive a character is likely to be able to be carried by a person) the difference isn't gonna wreck game balance but for large explosives carried by bombs and missiles things are waayyy off. Realistically explosives should be scaled with the cube root of the explosives weight, not only would this let explosives scale better with HP but also it seems that it would fit better how blast waves scale in real life as well.

Quote:
I think next on the list is a 3e Metal Gear RAY (not sure how to do the water cutter though... Liquid Projector or Laser w/ some rule changes), then maybe 3e & 4e versions of Solid Snake (probably gonna be 450+ points for the first 2 MG games [lighter and lacquer spray flamethrower implies Gadgeteer] , and significantly lower for MGS4, as it seemed a bit less cinematic to me.)
When I get the chance I'll try to clobber something together for the water cutter but for stating Snake (or any video game character in general) don't get caught up with trying to stat the obliviously gamey aspects of him or his actions and just try to stat them up more naturally.
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Old 07-06-2015, 12:38 PM   #14
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Default Re: GURPS 3e & 4e Metal Gear Solid

@Ryujin I see, those are all interesting points; I'll consider them. I think we should wait for Vehicles 4e to come out before trying to create REX or RAY in 4e (like I said, I think the Spaceships rules are fun and useful, but its pretty bad as far as land vehicles go.)

For those who don't know, The TL is 8+3, derived from the Steampunk books as an alternate technology progression. The Metal Gear series takes place from 1964 to 2018, but with some anachronisms (Lasers, Railguns, Cyborgs, etc. Hell, in MGS peace walker they apparently have autonomous pseudo-sentient hover drones, and that's just in 1974!)
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Old 07-06-2015, 04:54 PM   #15
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Default Re: GURPS 3e & 4e Metal Gear Solid

Here's some 4e stuff:
[*]Raiden (Jack):

Backstory (!SPOILERS!):

Jack was born on a rainy day in Liberia. During his youth, in the turbulent period that was the Liberian Civil War, Jack was adopted by Solidus Snake, who became his godfather after he killed the former's parents. Jack was subsequently raised as a child soldier and later fought in the country's Civil War in 1989. He and other children were shown Hollywood action films daily for "image training," and were given food mixed with gunpowder containing toluene to make them more controllable. On one occasion, Jack was injected with an unknown substance during a physician's experiment. On another, Jack witnessed Solidus demonstrate to him that blades were a "noble weapon" compared to guns, by slitting another soldier's throat in front of him. Under Solidus, Jack became a killing machine, known alternately as the "White Devil" and "Jack the Ripper" due to his incredibly high kill rate compared to other boys his age, as well as a reference to his being one of the few Caucasians born in Liberia.After the war ended, Solidus had Jack placed in a relief center, although the relief center was reluctant to put the latter into a foster family because they feared he would be too much trouble for the family. Eventually, without Solidus' knowledge, he was later removed by a non-governmental organization and taken to the United States. Jack and other surviving members of the Small Boy Unit then underwent extensive amounts of counseling before becoming at least outwardly stable. There, Jack came into the hands of the Patriots, who implanted his cerebral cortex with a high concentration of nanomachines, in order to have him function as a back-up system for an optic-neuro AI.

Jack would grow up to suppress the memories about his terrible childhood, burying the memories of his bloody past, though he still suffered from nightmares of his past nearly every night. Now living a life in the United States, Jack joined the military where his admirable skills were at first recognized by the U.S. Army's Task Force XXI, although unlike other members of Force XXI, he was not involved in the Genome trials. He had eventually left the Force XXI group by January 20, 2007.

On April 30, 2007, Jack met Rosemary after transferring to Fort Hamilton in New York City, and had an argument about King Kong. After they parted ways, they met again afterwards, shocked that they worked in the same place. Eventually, Jack grew to love Rose deeply, but his harsh experiences had left him melancholic and emotionally distant, and he constantly shut her out of his problems. In large part because of his PTSD-induced nightmares, he also refused to sleep next to Rose out of fear of hurting her. Most times when they did get together, he either stayed awake all night or otherwise left Rose's place, and he wouldn't let her in his bedroom. This eventually culminated in Rose entering his room without his permission, which was devoid of any personal objects save for a bed and a desk. However, all of this drama was a ruse by the Patriots to gain more control over Jack's life, with Rosemary acting as a spy.

Sometime prior to the Big Shell Incident, Jack was recruited into the supposedly reformed FOXHOUND, a special forces unit that no longer officially existed. One of his training sessions at FOXHOUND was at Fort Polk, within a mock Afghan village.

Source: The Metal Gear Solid Wiki, Metal Gear Solid 2: Sons of Liberty, Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots, and Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance

Raiden [262 points](Circa 2007, as depicted in MGS2):

Attributes and Figured Qualities: ST 11 DX 13 IQ 10 HT 11; Thr. Damage 1d-1 Sw. Damage 1d+1 BL 24 lbs. HP 13 Will 11 Per 12 FP 16 Basic Speed 6.25 Basic Move 6. Age 26. [119 points]

Advantages: Handsome Appearance (Androgynous), Cultural Familiarity (Western), Cultural Familiarity (Middle Eastern), English (Fluent), Comfortable Wealth, Status 0, Military Rank 2, Acute Hearing +2, Legal Alternate Identity (as Raiden), Breath Holding +4, Combat Reflexes, Enhanced Dodge, Fit, High Pain Threshold, Legal Enforcement Powers (10-point level), Less Sleep 1, Night Vision 2, Patron (The Patriots, 15 or less)(Secret -50%), Peripheral Vision, Rapid Healing, Security Clearance (10-point level), Temperature Tolerance 1. [208 points]

Perks: Ground Guard, Pistol Fist (Guns(Pistol)), Quick-Sheathe (Knife), Quick-Swap (Pistol), Quick-Swap (Knife), Dual-Ready (Pistol/Knife), Sure-Footed (Slippery), Better Pistols, Low Rejection Threshold, Robust Hearing, Robust Vision, Cross-Trained (Pistols), Off-Hand Training (Pistol). [13 points]

Disadvantages: Dependent (Rosemary, 9 or less), Extremely Hazardous Involuntary Duty (to "FOXHOUND" and secretly The Patriots), Oblivious, Secret (Child Soldier), Sense of Duty (Companions), Gullibility (15 or less on resistance roll), Nightmares. [-75 points]

Quirks: Congenial, Likes Monster Movies, Responsive. [-3 points]

Skills: Too lazy to post now, will update soon. You can just assume he has a decent military background (maybe 60 points or so) as far as skills go.
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Old 07-06-2015, 09:58 PM   #16
warellis
 
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Default Re: GURPS 3e & 4e Metal Gear Solid

Considering all the VR training Jack received, what TL would the VR be you think considering how real it was described as?
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Old 07-06-2015, 11:09 PM   #17
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Default Re: GURPS 3e & 4e Metal Gear Solid

Ok.... Here's some of my thought on your write up.

[*]Body and Subassemblies: Two Legs, one striker arm on the right side (the railgun), limited rotation turret (the "head"), one pod (the radome) on left shoulder.

Realistically you should make both the railgun arm and the radome either both striker arms or pods since both pieces of equipment are attached to the same kind of hard points, seems Rex was meant to be modular which makes sense from a sales point of view – more variants means more potential buyers.

My take on the build would be to make both sides as striker arms.

[*]Drivetrain: One TL10 4,093.5kW Leg drivetrain in each leg.

I'd build this a TL 8 (which would be roughly equivalent to early TL 9 in GURPS) 8187kW leg drive train. There's really no reason to build Rex as too advanced since it was going for a big and bulky “real robot” vibe.

Weight: 49,392 lbs. ~25 tons.
Cost: $9,900,000
Volume: 490 ft^3 per leg.
Power: 8187kW

[*]Arm Motors: One TL9 ST 350 Cheap Striker Arm Motor in Arm.

3rd ed ST 350 is only equal to ST 59 in 4th ed which gives a BL of 700 lbs which is kinda puny. I'd beef it up to at lest ST 4000 (4th ed ST 200).

Two TL8 ST 4000 Cheap Striker Arms

Weight: 800 lbs per arm
Cost: $400,000 per arm
Volume: 16 ft^3 per arm
Power: 20kW per arm

[*]Thrusters: One Ducted fan with 10,000 lbs. motive thrust in each leg.

Wait... when did Ol' Rexy have thrusters?

[*]Cockpit: Basic Cockpit in turret with the No Extinguisher and No
Lifesystem downgrades.

Given that it's cocpit was sealed... I'd say that it had a life support system (or Liquid would of died of ham induced asphyxia after a few minutes of battle...). Also while not shown I'd place good money on Armtech wanting to put at lest a sprinkler in their golden ticket out of bankruptcy heh.

TL 8 basic cockpit in the turret

Weight: 590 lbs
Cost: $80,100
Volume: 24.7 ft^3
Power: 0.5kW

[*]Built-in Weapons:
Two 30mm X GAU-8R Avenger rotary cannons in turret facing forward with 2,500 shots each,

Free-Electron Mobile Tactical High-Energy Laser (MTHEL-FE, [ArmsTech International V17 Vulcan Cannon, Searing LaserStorm High-Energy Cutter "Slice n' Dice"]) in body facing forward,

four 178mm REX missile launchers concealed (see GURPS Vehicles p.42) in body facing upwards with 6 AGM-114P "Hellfire" HEAT missiles each,

one 178mm REX missile launcher in each leg facing forward with 3 AGM-114P "Hellfire" HEAT missiles each,

18.5m Rail Gun (Special Ops Optimum Bombardment 422 "Widowmaker" 705mm launch tube) in arm with 3 AGM-129 ACM 200kt Nuclear Warheads.

Retractable Sharp Claws (REX's foot spikes) in each leg.
[*]Weapon Accessories: 178mm REX missile launchers in boy are linked, MTHEL-FE has casemate mount, and all AGM-114P and AGM-129 ACM missiles are in anti-blast magazines.

Weapons seem good, if this is just gonna be fore a 3rd ed campaign then they're all easy enough to stat up vehicles weapon design rules. There's no rules for tandem shape charge war heads in 3rd (which is needed for hellfire's warhead) but I don't see why you can't just use the rules for them from High-Tech 4th ed. To stat out the smaller pre-charge treat it as having a diameter only about ~63% of the main charge.

[*]Sensors: 50-mile range PESA in pod facing forward, 125-mile range AESA in pod facing forward.

[*]Comsuite: Basic Comsuite in Turret.

[*]Electronic Countermeasures (ECM): Deceptive Jammer (Jam Rating 6) in turret.

[*]Power Systems: 9,171kW Gas Turbine (ArmsTech AGM 4000 "Behemoth") in body powers all systems except MTHEL-FE using 504.4gph of Diesel fuel. 20,000,000kWs TL9 non-rechargeable power cell (Laser Pro Pack) in body powers MTHEL-FE for 174 shots.

This all looks good.

[*]Fuel and Fuel Tanks: 1,515-gallon self-sealing tank in body provides fuel for 3 hours of Gas Turbine operation.


3hrs isn't anywhere enough to power Rex for the kind of remote location, independent deployment it was meant for. I'd peg it at being able to operate for at lest 8hrs as a requirement, I don't see it running for that long but gives enough gas to run for long periods of time idling and still be mobile.

I'd stat the tanks like this:

2421.12 gallon self sealing tank in the body with a 807 gallon self sealing tank in each leg. Body tank weighs 2,4221 lbs, takes up 363 ft^3 and costs $24,000. 2421.12 gallons of diesel weighs 14,527 lbs. and costs $2,900 (Yeah, I wish gas prices were that good). 807 gallon self sealing tank weighs 807 lbs, takes up 121 ft^3 and costs $8,000 in each leg. 807 gallons of diesel weighs 4,842 lbs and costs $970.

[*]Access Space: 183.72cf of access space in body, 137.88cf of access space in each leg.

[*]Volumes: Arm volume 5,130cf, Pod volume 1,387cf, Turret volume 13,000cf, Body volume 41,800cf, each Leg volume 60,840cf.


These volumes are... huge. Like... the body's volume alone is so huge you could stuff 5,000 bodies inside of it!You also probably don't need that much access space.

[*]Structure: TL10 Medium Frame, Advanced Materials.


I'd bring it down a bit once again to TL 8 but still with Advanced Materials which has a weight of 1.5 and a cost of $500 per pound. Rex is also a walking tank so it also needs a heavy frame.

[*]Hit Points: Body HP 10,840, Turret HP 4,976, Pod HP 350 (Intentionally lowered), each Leg HP 13,923, Arm HP 5,355.


I'd leave the Radomes HP alone and just give it weaker armor since being a sensor platform you probably can't put thick plates on it without blocking it's ability to act as a sensor heh.

[*]Surface Features: Waterproof. Radical Stealth and Foot Rollers.

[*]Armor: Superscience TL15 Collapsed Matter Armor (see GURPS Vehicles Expansion 2 p.6) is PD 6 DR 300, except for pod, which is PD 6 DR 40.


No need for such extreme armor heh. It's armor was just an advanced ceramic composite laminate, probably just an advanced version of “Dorchester” so it's probably best represented as Advanced Ceramic Composite, which is the same as TL 8 expensive laminate. Weight is 0.15, cost is $30 per pound and if you want to fuse over volume divide it's weight by 150.

Ok, hope this helps you write up a bit. Need any more help with it's stats just let me know.
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Old 07-07-2015, 10:46 AM   #18
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Default Re: GURPS 3e & 4e Metal Gear Solid

@ warellis I'd Say probably TL8+2. It's similar enough to modern predictions of the VR capabilities of the (relatively) near future, but I think it is different enough from TL10 to be considered TL8+2 (plus this goes with the whole "alternate tech path" theme of the Metal Gear series.

@Ryujin: The choice to make the Railgun a striker arm but not the radome was an easy one for me. I figured the radome couldn't exert enough force effectively enough to qualify even as a striker arm (it's short and stubby, like a T-Rex's.) The Raigun seemed long enough to qualify as an arm, and could theoretically be used as a spatula to pick things up, but not very effectively, hence the low ST. Keep in mind that arm is about 94% gun. I don't think you would lift with it. The thrusters are there because REX can jump in the games. His Drivetrains, powerful though they are, would probably crumple under its own weight if he tried jumping without the thrusters. He can't fly though.

I didn't think it was sealed because the graphics of it when closed seemed to indicate it wasn't airtight. Also, the cockpit was shown exploding at one point, right? I don't think there was an extinguisher system. REX's "official" stats (from the Metal Gear Solid: Official Mission Handbook) states it has a fuel capacity of 5,550 liters (or ~1,505 gallons). The stats also say that his maximum range without refueling is ~935 miles, about 5 times the amount the 5,550 liters provides. I had to cut corners somewhere...

The Volumes are so massive in order to correlate with REX's official volume in cf: 182,000. I calculated it based on his length times his width times his height, and that's what I came up with. I think it's technically correct, though I agree it seems excessive. The radome's comparatively massive HP (1,120 was the original amount) would have made it take far longer to destroy with the Stinger Missiles.

As I stated in another post, the TL15 armor was necessary due to weight constraints (at the time I was more than 20,000 lbs over the target weight of 115,000 [which is about equal to his official weight in kilograms]) I wanted to use TL9 Composite Armor as it seemed closest to the description, but I couldn't spread that amount of weight over his massive frame. I also wanted to use the heavy frame, but the weight problem was there too, and I figured the HP would be high enough anyway due to REX's huge mass.

The access space is the minimum required.

Last edited by RedDragon; 07-07-2015 at 12:04 PM.
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Old 07-07-2015, 12:44 PM   #19
Eukie
 
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Default Re: GURPS 3e & 4e Metal Gear Solid

I think you're off by an order of magnitude on REX' volume. A box 5.76 m wide, 7.45 m long, and 12 m tall is 515 cubic meters, or 18,190 cf, not 181,900 cf.

That's also the volume needed to enclose it in a box; the REX isn't box-shaped, so it'll have a lot less volume than that. Since (IIRC) surface area in Vehicles is based on volume, you'll also be able to reduce the amount of armour by approximately half an order of magnitude too, which should help with the weight problem.

I also think launching the whole 1,334 kg AGM-119 ACM is excessive, and the REX should just launch the 110 kg W80 warhead. I believe no canonical source says the whole AGM-119 is launched, and the order of magnitude weight difference is a lot. To launch the AGM-119 ACM at 100 km/s (using a steel railgun with 5 cm x 5 cm rails) requires 434 GJ of energy at a peak power of 1.4 Petawatts. Launching just the W80 requires just 39 GJ at 110 Terawatts. Being able to save an order of magnitude is pretty useful!
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Old 07-07-2015, 02:08 PM   #20
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Default Re: GURPS 3e & 4e Metal Gear Solid

@ Eukie Wow, I guess I did mess up the calculations.Thanks for the fix. I'll post an updated version of REX with yours and Ryujin's tips. One question though, the W80 warhead is literally just a bomb, so how big do you think I should make the missile (the motor and guidance system, etc.)?
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