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Old 07-13-2018, 07:09 PM   #3431
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Default Re: New Reality Seeds

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Originally Posted by Prince Charon View Post
The Sentinel's world could be quite interesting, even if no other 'superhumans' show up. Batman-like Super-Normals are a distinct possibility, due to the inspiration provided by the Sentinel.
Jack might be able to grant them some powers. After all, gods bless their favored heroes.
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Old 07-13-2018, 10:17 PM   #3432
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Okay
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The Sentinel's world could be quite interesting, even if no other 'superhumans' show up. Batman-like Super-Normals are a distinct possibility, due to the inspiration provided by the Sentinel.
If it went dark, it could resemble Watchmen in tone. That setting had only two beings who exceeded human norms and only Dr. Manhattan did so, noticeably.

Veidt was super-human, also, but so subtly that only the rest of the masks knew it. Still, that's why it scared the crap out of them to find themselves up against him.

Have the god-hero bless a few favorites, who then decide to go all Miracleman, and you could have a supers campaign I might actually consider worthwhile -- and that hardly ever happens.
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Old 07-14-2018, 01:38 AM   #3433
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Default Re: New Reality Seeds

Shouldn't we need an opposing god to create super villains?
Citizens just see Justice League vs. Legion of Doom. But those in the know understand it's really just one vs. one and their champions/minions.

Lots of gods are dualistic, so even the good one may not realize that he is in some part also the bad one.
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Old 07-14-2018, 05:59 AM   #3434
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Default Re: New Reality Seeds

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Shouldn't we need an opposing god to create super villains?
Citizens just see Justice League vs. Legion of Doom. But those in the know understand it's really just one vs. one and their champions/minions.

Lots of gods are dualistic, so even the good one may not realize that he is in some part also the bad one.
Watchmen was all the more effective for a lack of real supervillians. And yes, Veidt was as much monster than any supervillian. And were shown than he will meet is nemesis among those to stupid for him to understand.
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Old 07-14-2018, 10:02 AM   #3435
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Default Re: New Reality Seeds

I've only seen the movie and really did not like it. I hear the comic was quite different though.
To my mind, pretty much every single character was either an outright villain or pathetic dilettante except for Rorschach. He was an antihero.
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Old 07-14-2018, 11:11 AM   #3436
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I've only seen the movie and really did not like it. I hear the comic was quite different though.
To my mind, pretty much every single character was either an outright villain or pathetic dilettante except for Rorschach. He was an antihero.
In the comic Rorschach is a monster you pitty and loath. The Night Owl and the Silk Spector are both heroes and ordinary people who fail to be heroes. Dr. Manhattan is slowly dying in a way as his humanity ebbs away. You have the subtle impression of his pain as he realizes his profound loss. The Watchmen is a tragedy in spandex tights.
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Old 07-14-2018, 03:50 PM   #3437
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I've only seen the movie and really did not like it. I hear the comic was quite different though.
To my mind, pretty much every single character was either an outright villain or pathetic dilettante except for Rorschach. He was an antihero.
In the book, Rorschach exemplified what someone would be like who operated according to comic-book morality in a world of of realistic complexity. He's a violent psychopath who views his civilian life as the mask for Rorschach.

He perceives Rorschach as his true identity after the person he was couldn't cope with the horrors he saw on the streets. A particularly terrible case induced a psychotic break, and Rorschach emerged as the surviving personality.

Dan and Laurie got pulled into the superhero game without really understanding what they were getting themselves into. Dan was a talented engineer who wanted to be like a childhood hero, and Laurie got pushed into it by her former masked hero stage-mom.

The fact that they found each other is one of the few bright spots in the story.

Veidt is a mutant whose extraordinary abilities and sexual orientation distance him enough from the rest of humanity that he sees them as highly flawed and, therefore to be used and manipulated -- not only for their own good, though. Veidt is wise enough to understand that the quality of his life depends on them, and a stable society is best for him, over the long term.

Edward Blake is a sociopath with genius-level insight into society and human motivation. His understanding of the human condition probably approaches Veidt's, which is why those two men understood better than anyone how Dr. Manhattan's existence warped human reality.

Osterman is, basically, God in larval stage and, as with any god, his ability to connect with lesser beings has slowly withered away. What saves him is the insight that, despite their flaws, the random choices of the most flawed of people can result in something beautiful. That possibility made life worthwhile, and made humans worth preserving.

That insight was the second bright spot in the story, but a lot of bad things had to happen to get there.

It was a great story when it first came out, and nobody had ever seen anything like it. The use of the medium remains unparalleled.

The movie wasn't as good, but Veidt's plot was actually a bit stronger. I liked the film, but the change in the industry the book helped trigger was so advanced, by then, it was no longer as unique.
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Old 07-17-2018, 03:17 PM   #3438
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One once famous person, now nearly forgotten, with great potential for this thread, was Madame Chang Kai-shek. This is a woman FDR wanted kept out of the USA. Churchill was always terrified that Madame Chang would divert so much US aid to China that it would stave the European theatre of funds. Madame Chang was both fluent in English and excellent at manipulating men. She understood American illusions about China and used these to control several senators and many congressmen. Oddly enough, those who actually knew China, had little use for Madame Chang.

Madame Chang's diplomacy allowed her husband, Chang Kai-shek, to follow his policy of not fighting the Japanese and only doing minor holding actions against the Communists. Basically, Chang was trying to siphon off wealth from outside donors to build a war chest for taking over China after the Japanese left. FDR wanted China to actually fight the Japanese. As that would expose Chang to real risk and make his future control of China less certain, Chang declined. Besides, why bother complying with US demands? Madame Chang could always get her pet senators to make FDR back off because of the wider war.

Chang probably lengthened the Pacific war by two years. Had the USA been able to establish air bases in China and have the Chinese Army guard them, the Japanese home islands would have come under heavy bombardment two years early. With an equally early collapse of the Japanese economy.

In this Q6 world, Madame Change falls in love with a Chinese American businessman while at Wellesley College and never returns to China. She becomes a patron of the arts and promotes serious scholarly exchange between China and the USA.

Without Madame Chang, Chang Kai-Shek never becomes as prominent. He is assassinated by a petty warlord in a minor dispute. The man who becomes the leader of China (also with the family name Chang) sees the vital need to fight corruption in China and to give the peasants reasons to support the government against the Communists. This Chang promotes land reforms throughout Southern China (he has little authority in the North) and reforms the Army. FDR gets Chinese armies defending American Air Bases and Japan is forced to surrender in December 1943. Stalin, desperate to keep American aid flowing in, gives Mao and the Chinese Communists no aid for two years.

The local year is 1950, China is divided into a Communist North and a Capitalist South. Taiwan, Korea, and Vietnam are all solidly in the Western camp and Land reforms (largely following the ideas of Ladejinsky have been carried out in all three nations as well as in Southern China. Mao is desperate, it's conquer China now, or simply give up. Backed by Stalin, Mao launches a war of conquest.

Basically, a much larger scary Korean war. Centrum backs Stalinism, this world has way to much New Dealers spirit to it. The Cabal seems both scared of and obsessed with China. Homeline simply wants to keep their China and Russia out of the War.

I corrected the link on Madame Chiang.
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Old 07-17-2018, 04:17 PM   #3439
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Default Re: New Reality Seeds

I'll just concede that Soong Mei-Ling was very important to the rise of Jiang Jieshi.
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FDR wanted China to actually fight the Japanese. As that would expose Chang to real risk and make his future control of China less certain, Chang declined. Besides, why bother complying with US demands? Madame Chang could always get her pet senators to make FDR back off because of the wider war.

Chang probably lengthened the Pacific war by two years. Had the USA been able to establish air bases in China and have the Chinese Army guard them, the Japanese home islands would have come under heavy bombardment two years early. With an equally early collapse of the Japanese economy.
Unlikely. Even as late as 1944, the Japanese demonstrated the ability to take whatever they pleased in China. While Jiang Jieshi wanted wait out the Japanese and focus on the Communists, the warlords of China would have made it very difficult for the central government to go on the offensive against the Japanese, showing up to show the flag but evaporating before combat. Besides this, the Americans would have had a difficult time pulling off a beatdown on the Japanese like this. The Allied strategy was always "Europe First", and the CBI was prioritized after the Pacific theaters because of political concerns. In order to get sufficient materials to the Chinese to pull off this strategy, at least the Ledo Road would have needed to be opened (maybe even the Burman railway or a naval route).
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Without Madame Chang, Chang Kai-Shek never becomes as prominent. He is assassinated by a petty warlord in a minor dispute. The man who becomes the leader of China (also with the family name Chang) sees the vital need to fight corruption in China and to give the peasants reasons to support the government against the Communists. This Chang promotes land reforms throughout Southern China (he has little authority in the North) and reforms the Army. FDR gets Chinese armies defending American Air Bases and Japan is forced to surrender in December 1943. Stalin, desperate to keep American aid flowing in, gives Mao and the Chinese Communists no aid for two years.

The local year is 1950, China is divided into a Communist North and a Capitalist South.
Without a brazen anti-communist like Jiang Jieshi, the First United Front would likely have held together. It would form the basis of the Chinese government after WW2 and would have given Stalin, or whomever gave the Chinese the most support at the critical time, sufficient influence to control the country.
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Old 07-17-2018, 04:19 PM   #3440
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Default Re: New Reality Seeds

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One once famous person, now nearly forgotten, with great potential for this thread, was Madame Chang Kai-shek.
One of many very interesting individuals, that do not wind up in a position to make big changes.

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Chang probably lengthened the Pacific war by two years. Had the USA been able to establish air bases in China and have the Chinese Army guard them, the Japanese home islands would have come under heavy bombardment two years early. With an equally early collapse of the Japanese economy.
Can not happen this early. The US did not have the resources to mount the major air campaign needed to accomplish this at this point in time. The B29 did not go into service until May of 1944, and the B32 in January of 1945, these two aircraft were the only aircraft mass produced* during World War II with the necessary range and payload to hit central Japan from any realistically capturable territory in China. Lastly, even if an invigorated China kept the Burma Road open, it would also be too hard to get the needed resources too China.

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The local year is 1950, China is divided into a Communist North and a Capitalist South. Taiwan, Korea, and Vietnam are all solidly in the Western camp and Land reforms (largely following the ideas of Ladejinsky have been carried out in all three nations as well as in Southern China. Mao is desperate, it's conquer China now, or simply give up. Backed by Stalin, Mao launches a war of conquest.

Basically, a much larger scary Korean war. Centrum backs Stalinism, this world has way to much New Dealers spirit to it. The Cabal seems both scared of and obsessed with China. Homeline simply wants to keep their China and Russia out of the War.
An interesting idea, perhaps we can have a better lead China doing what you suggest in the South, while giving the Communists more support/freer reign in the North. WW II ends and the Soviets help Mao control Manchuria, and northeast China?

*Ok, massed produced for the B32 is a bit generous, but they were working on doing so if the B29 failed.
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